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PDM - Which one?
3

PDM - Which one?

PDM - Which one?

(OP)
I am currently looking for an enterprise wide document management solution. I have looked up previous posts on this subject and while learning some things I would like to get some user input.

The PDM software I am looking for needs to be able to:
-handle SolidWorks files (looking at Gold Partners)
-handle MS Office, PDF, image, Protel, etc... files
-routing/approval of documents
-e-mail notifications
-web based to allow remote users to retrieve data (without installing a client application on remote machines - we would like to allow some customers to "log in" and see certain data - would also like to involve customers in non-conformance routings/approvals)
-ability to link production/quality documents to a part / PO / Job Order / Work Order / etc... (need to present traceability to clients upon demand)
-ability to link to ERP system thru custom programming (Made2Manage is our ERP system)
-file security - once a document is checked-in to the vault it cannot be modified unless checked out - can't be checked back in until it has been approved

I put together the long list of what I want to generate good responses. Any experience, good or bad, will be appreciated.

Louis

RE: PDM - Which one?

Louis,
    SolidWorks PDM\Works will handle the files just fine. Not the rest, like linking to ERP. Ask your VAR about PDM Advanced server and the Web portal. That might do the trick. You could also look into SmarTeam, but we had trouble with it because we did not understand it when we set it up.

Bradley

RE: PDM - Which one?

PDMWorks can handle SolidWorks files (obviously) as well as non-SW files.  Routing and approval could be more of a problem; it depends on how rigorous your company wants to be about it.

PDMWorks can do e-mail notifications under certain circumstances, but if you want them in reference to routing and approval, that may not be feasible.

The PDMWorks web portal is very "bare bones" and really not a suitable substitute for the client software (i.e. you can't select assembly components with the assembly file), plus it doesn't come standard with PDMWorks; you have to buy it with Advanced Server.

The ability to link other documents to SW documents is no problem.

Most likely, you would not be able to successfully link PDMWorks to an ERP system.  We have tried to link it to Agile, and we haven't found a way to do it so far.  It would all depend on how flexible your ERP system is, and how much of it could access the PDMW API.

PDMWorks uses file ownership to determine what can be done to a file.  As an example, you could use lifecycles to establish ownership on the files at various stages, then release ownership when the changes had been approved.  The check-in process could then re-establish ownership on the files to avoid unapproved check-ins.

RE: PDM - Which one?

PDMs we were considering:

ProductCenter(www.softtech.com)
Eigner PLM (Now owned by Agile) (www.agile.com)
Matrix
DBWorks (www.mechworks.com)



ProductCenter, Eigner, & Matrix have Solidworks integrations but they are not the best at it. Productcenters was not bad, Eigners was ok, and Matrix's was the worst. Matrix was probably the most costly of the 3, followed by Eigner, and then ProductCenter.

DBWorks is more of a SolidWorks based PDM but they do handle other file types well. Very customizable with decent Solidworks integration. Interface takes getting used to.

All of these have web access I believe but all require a windows client to deal with Solidworks file checkin,out, etc...

All this depends on if you want Electronic Document management (EDM) or Product Data Management (PDM or PLM). Those I mentioned above are mostly PDMs with DBWorks being borderline.

For EDMs, there's Meridian & Adept.

Jason Capriotti
Smith & Nephew, Inc.

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
Right now I think the top three contenders we are considering are SmartTeam, Synergis Adept, and Agile PLM.
I am in the process of contacting these companies to get their literature, demos, sales pitch, etc...

RE: PDM - Which one?

Hi,

We currently have a patchwork of different systems.  PDMWorks is our SW file management tool and handles this stuff just fine along with legacy data.  It's pretty useless for workflow management and the like though.

I have had rather extensive experience with implementing and utilizing SmarTeam which was both difficult and trying but one could see its advantages when taking an objective look at it.  I don't think I have ever heard of an implementation that was without headache though.

Currently we're looking into Agile which I was told is a bit less painful to implement.  They are supposed to demo here at some point in the very near future so I will try and make some time to post back if you're interested in some info or opinions on it that aren't hearsay.

Best Regards,

Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
RawheadRex I am definitely interested in opinions and experiences. There is a possibility that I may be able to go to SW2005 to meet with multiple PLM vendors at once. Unfortunately SmartTeam and Agile aren't listed as exhibitors.

Once we make a decision I will update with our selection and why.

RE: PDM - Which one?

We use PDMW, and like it.

RE: PDM - Which one?

We use Meridian, by Cyco <http://www.cyco.com>.

It is not a SolidWorks partner product.  It does handle SolidWorks files, including associativity in assemblies and drawings.

Meridian doesn't have all the SW related bells and whistles, but from an enterprise-wide perspective, it was the best solution for our company.

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
What SW bells & whistles is it missing?
I am familiar with Cyco and used their AM-Workflow product from 1993-1999 with AutoCad files.

RE: PDM - Which one?

llafleur,
When you purchase SW Office Professional (which is about 4,995 a seat) it come with PDMWorks to manage your SW files as well as autocad and many other file extensions. The nice thing about PDMWorks is it stays current with SW releases. We currently use SW as our primary CAD system with PDMWorks as our PDM.

Hope this helps,

Macduff
Meggitt Airdynamics Inc.
Dell Precision 370
SW2004 Pro SP4.1
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1300

RE: PDM - Which one?

I thought Solidworks Office Pro was $5500.

Jason Capriotti
Smith & Nephew, Inc.

RE: PDM - Which one?

2
Sounds like SmarTeam can do everything you're asking for. We're going to start doing some workflow stuff in the very near future. We already use the web base products to share drawing information with our shop floors globally. Replication is next on my list of "to do's" to China facilities allowing global collaboration and design.

Kevin Carpenter
CAD Systems Specialist
Invacare Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

kcarpenter,
Are you using Smarteam with PDMworks? If so, I would like to talk to you more on that issue. Also, How long was the implementation of Smarteam?

Best,

Macduff
Meggitt Airdynamics Inc.
Dell Precision 370
SW2004 Pro SP4.1
XP Pro SP2.0
NIVIDA Quadro FX 1300

RE: PDM - Which one?

macduff,
No, we don't use ST with PDMW. Our implementation was done back in 1997 and took about 5-6 months at that time. Business processes, data structure, field mappings, etc. all took some time to figure out. But today I would think an implementation would take less, more like 4-5 months depending on how complex and custom the install becomes (this would include additional modules of the product like workflow, FDA, Web based tools, etc.) It all really depends on the number of seats, data being captured/stored, and additional features of the product you want to use.

Kevin Carpenter
CAD Systems Specialist
Invacare Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

Our company is also shopping around for PDM solutions as we currently use PDMW but are finding it difficult to work with across multiple sites.

I see SmartTeam mentioned frequently on this site but I've been scared away by all the reports of problem-ridden implementations, even resulting in the software having to be shelved.  Is this a realistic fear?

Also - is it difficult to move your data from PDMW to SmartTeam (I know it's difficult to move it from PDMW to other PDM/PLM systems)?  Can SmartTeam run over top of PDMW?

RE: PDM - Which one?

I think the most common reasons PDM implementations fail are because of poor planning, bad information gathering, or insufficient testing prior to rollout. No software is without it shortcomings, but the better you prepare yourself the less likely those will stifle your installation. Having a knowledgeable ST VAR is very important also.

PDMW is based on MS SQL database if I remember correctly. ST used to be able to run on this DB but recommends using Oracle as the DB. You should be able to export the data from your existing DB and import it via the bulk loader in ST getting the data housed and working.

I would guess to say that ST would work with PDMW, but it would pretty much be a waste to continue using your PDMW if you've got ST. The amount of customization needed would probably make it not worth the effort and expensive.

Please keep in mind that ST isn’t sold as a small mom and pop shop tool mainly because it’s not exactly cheap. But if the ROI is acceptable it might be the right tool given your needs.

I talk to potential ST customers often throughout the year because of our relationship with ST and VAR. I would be happy to discuss anything regarding ST personally (i.e. one on one) provided I'm not too busy of course. Drop me an email and we can arrange something.

Kevin Carpenter
CAD Systems Specialist
Invacare Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
PDM search update:

Local VAR thinks SmarTeam is much more than we need along with the associated maintenance and cost

Local VAR is getting set up to represent Conisio - wainting to see something here

Looked at Arena Solutions and their downfall is the document vault is on a web server in their facility

Saw a web presentation on Adept today and it looks promising

Spoke with the local VAR for Cyco today - doing more research

Agile looks good on its website but I am hearing that is definitely overkill and quite expensive to purchase and maintain

RE: PDM - Which one?

lafelur -

Sounds like we are at similar stages of the game for upgrading PDM/PLM systems.

Our VAR has just recommended Conisio to us, we will be seeing a demo in the next few weeks.  It is more in line with what we need, which is principally file management rather than BOM item management (which other systems like ProductCenter and Arean PLM are based on).  User interface is also much nicer than anything I've seen.

I also looked at Adept and was quite impressed - pretty straightforward to use, support for distributed worksites over a WAN, ERP integration, nice workflow etc..  However it doesn't support multiple copies of documents existing at multiple server locations i.e. when I pull a document out of the system, it may be coming from a remote server rather than a local server (slow).

Please keep us posted on your search!

RE: PDM - Which one?

llafleur,

Adept appears to be a very nice product.  Please be aware that it does not support multiple configurations.  That is the sole reason we chose not to go with it.

Mike

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
I did pick up on that during the presentation and it is somewhat of a disappointment.

What product did you go with Mike?

RE: PDM - Which one?

We decided on DBWorks.  I tried the month-long trial and found the reseller (IPS) to be very helpful in answering our MANY questions.  We'll be installing across the system in 2 weeks.

Mike

RE: PDM - Which one?

(OP)
I've got the evaluation copy downloaded, just haven't had the time to install and evaluate.

Any features in DBWorks that are significantly better than the competition?

Any features that could be improved but don't really hold you back?

Anything that you have had to develop a workaround for?

The internet presentations for software usually look really good. The vendor has chosen to demo it with things they know will work. I know I am asking several questions but the answers will help in decision making. If you have the time I'd also like similar feedback on the other programs you evaluated (pro's & con's).

I managed to get approval to attend SW World this year and I plan to spend time with the PDM vendors there to learn as much as possible about there products. Hoping to get PDM up and running here by March or April.

RE: PDM - Which one?

We haven't installed DBWorks for full-time use, so I can't really answer about work arounds or improvements.  The 1 feature that, for us, makes DBWorks really stand out is the BOM creator.

We looked at several programs: ProductCenter, Synergis, MaxxDB, PDMWorks, DBWorks, Activault (I think it no longer exists), Conisio, SimplePDM, and DataDesignManager.

Several of these were quickly weeded out based on price, partner status with SolidWorks, or even miserable websites.  We looked in depth at PDMWorks, Synergis, and DBWorks.  Having used a PDM system at a previous job, I had many questions, and did not allow the web presenters to "gloss over" these items.

The key is to know what you want.  Every company has different needs, and what works well for us may not for you.  If you are new to PDM, learn what they can do, think about what you need, and pound them with the questions until you understand if it will meet your needs.

RE: PDM - Which one?

Cyco AutoManager is now a Gold Partner of SolidWorks and is a worthy candidate for companies looking to move to a document management solution.  It can handle small workgroups with it's TeamWork platform as well as medium to large companies with Meridian.  It runs on a SQL-based, MS SQL or Oracle database.  It also has a BOM module that can hook into an ERP/MRP system like Made2Manage or SAP.

www.cyco.com has more details.

RE: PDM - Which one?

We are new to this, just joined the forum as I just this Company. There is a desperate need here for a PDM system. We've been actively courting PDMW and Auto Manager by Cyco.Smarteam is not in the $$ range we are looking at and we are just looking for this sight.

Any of these seem to be capable for most of our needs. Our concern! Secure approval & electronicly managing files and permissions. Simple enough isn't it? The main concern "Secure paperless approval"

Alexander Hahnl
L-3 ESSCO

RE: PDM - Which one?

We too are looking into a PDM system. What we do here are mainly one-offs or 'custom' elevator cabs and entrances. We are mainly concerned with SW file management. Design of our product will start with equation driven assemblies (each one will be different). What we need (at a minimum)is to copy part/assembly/sub-assembly/DRAWING files,break references, re-reference, re-name, move file structure, and print entire part/sub-assembly and assembly DRAWING files for each unique job as efficiently as possible. We have looked at many SW PDM's (smarteam, Agile, DBWorks etc.). PDMWorks is not an option (too much $ for too little performance). Most can't handle our needs and SW Explorer doesn't handle drawing files. Javware seems most compatible with our needs at this point. Does anyone have any furhter suggestions?

RE: PDM - Which one?

Take a look at Conisio.  We use Autocad and SolidWorks and haven't had a bit of trouble.

www.conisio.com

RE: PDM - Which one?

Norseman83,

To my knowledge, DBWorks will do everything you have mentioned.  

RE: PDM - Which one?

Kevin,

Sounds like you may be the resident expert on Smarteam.

Since your implementation what have been your experiences regarding software updates, i.e. ST keeping up with the latest SW releases.  It seems to me that ST lags behind SW by a few releases.

We "completed" our implementation to ST about a year ago and are still limited to running SW2003.

Otherwise the program has worked well for us.  Pretty much was the only game in town that would suit our needs; multi-site / vault, replication, workflow, part classification through custom data model.

We have some concerns regarding future support.  ST seems to be throwing most of their resources toward the CATIA side lately.

Tom

RE: PDM - Which one?

tar,
I wouldn't say I'm the resident expert as there are many others here who are involved with PDM systems to one degree or another. I just know what I know :)

Updates for ST with ANY supported CAD packages are lacking greatly IMO. This has been a major topic of discussion in other forums I frequent. I recently had a chance to talk to a Enterprise Customer Rep. face to face and expressed my two greatest concerns. First, support for new CAD releases/service packs. Second, poor web product development.

According to SMARTEAM, SW2K4SP4.2 is compatible with ST V5R12SP10, V5R13SP8, and V5R14SP3. SW2K5SP5 is compatible with V5R14SP7 with some toolbox limitations (but those should be resolved with the release of SP8 on Dec. 9th). SW2K5SP1.1 is compatible with V5R12SP11 and V5R14SP5. I personally don't see a reason to still be SW2K3 depending on what the version of ST your on. Only being a year old implementation I would guess you're using R14.

We learned back in '95 with our first seat of SW we were going to need a PDM system and when ST came about in '97 we were one of the first few U.S. customers. We just implemented multisite about 3 weeks ago, that was interesting. Take a database that has been in existance since '97 and see how it goes. We're currently waiting for our communications line to be installed in China to finish up the project.

I'm not so sure about the future support. I have not heard anything disruptive regarding the movement of resources to support CATIA. I think Dassault is positioning the products for different needs across CATIA and SW programs. Ideally CATIA would be teamed up with ENOVIA and SW with ST, but CATIA is also support by ST. I personally feel that support for ST w/ SW will continue at the same level as I have seen. What is concerning is that the ST group continues to route issues through their HQ in Israel. Thusly, response times on issues are delayed and if those happen to be "show stoppers" we're pretty much screwed for days.

I certainly extend my previous offer to talk one on one with you or anyone else regarding ST or PLM/PDM in general. Just let me know.

Kevin Carpenter
CAD Systems Specialist
Invacare Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

We have been using DBworks for many years now.  As stated it is very customizable.

Web access
File Replication (servers here in Houston and Germany)
SAP intergration
WorkFlow
Handles any file type (MS Office, autoCAD.....)

We currently handle 75,000 files in DBWorks

Ed Hulse
Sr. Designer/DBWorks Admin

RE: PDM - Which one?

Ed,

We are getting ready to move to SW 2006 - our first version upgrade since using DBWorks.  How do you handle new versions?  Do you upgrade all files, or just current projects?  Are you able to upgrade without bumping a revision?  

Thanks,
Mike Lentz

RE: PDM - Which one?

EdHulse,
I've not seen or used DBWorks personally, but it sounds like DBWorks fits your company well and has good modules to boot. We currently handle 228,000 files using 182GB of disk.

mmlentz,
I'm sure this applies to any application upgrade, but test, test, test, and test some more. We have a totally seperate test environment that mirrors our production systems. It has saved us alot of downtime, disruptions, and upgrade rollbacks. I'm sure Ed has more specific details than that regarding DBWorks. Good luck with your upgrade.

Kevin Carpenter
CAD Systems Specialist
Invacare Corp.

RE: PDM - Which one?

Hello. I just joined this forum. I'm in IT but also support SmarTeam and SolidWorks. I agree with Kevin on the SmarTeam and SolidWorks comments. I haven't had any success in accessing the SmarTeam user forum and I never got a response from the "webmaster."

We are using SolidWorks 2005 and really need to update to SP 5, but SmarTeam has been slow to certify it. I'm trying to figure out if we should go with SP 7 or wait for 8. Sounds like it will be out in December?

We had been using SolidWorks and were in need of a PDM system. I was not here at the time, but SmarTeam offered the most functionality for what we needed at that time (~1999-2000) and we locked in a great price. Presently, I heard that we pay for what we get.

We use SmarTeam for Workflow, BOM Management, and document management. The system helped us with our ISO certification. Recently, we implemented Web-Editor. The database is on SQL Server 2000. I have to say that the system is way better than the manual processes that were in place before. I just think it can do way better.

RE: PDM - Which one?

mmlentz

We convert all the part files only.  The only reason we do this is to speed up drawings and part files during opening.  Released files are view only so there is noticable difference 2005/2006.  Or office in Germany runs a script that pulls all security off part files-updates to new SW version and then places it all back.

This is all done outside DBWorks.  Any drawings or Assemblies are updated as they are checked out for revisions.

Ed Hulse
Sr. Designer/DBWorks Admin

RE: PDM - Which one?

We also NEVER upgrade SW versions until SP4.0 or higher....and like Kevin said we test and test and test.

I was trying to locate but i can't......Has Mechworks verified DBWorks with SW 2006?  I am sure the have though.

Ed Hulse
Sr. Designer/DBWorks Admin

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