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Due date moving

Due date moving

Due date moving

(OP)
OK I know we all love those due dates, but I want to run a poll here for input.
1.  If you have a due date that is December 1 2004 and then it is moved to become December 20 2004 how would you express this change to others on the team that are resources in the project?
2.  If you have a due date that is December 15 2004 and then it is moved to become November 15 2004 how would you express this change to others on the team that are resources in the project?

Our people here seem to use shorthand words to say which way the date is moving.

It is OK to just note what sentence you suggest.
Thanks, John

RE: Due date moving

1. The date moved back [relative to where you are, it got farther away]
2. The date moved forward

David

RE: Due date moving

1) Moved back to or Delayed to

2) Moved forward to or Brought foward to

My preference is the generic "Moved to" for both

from (the City of) Barrie, Ontario.

I tried sniffing Coke once, but the ice cubes got stuck in my nose

RE: Due date moving

I would use "has been made earlier by..." or "has been moved closer by..."  instead of "forward" or "back" to avoid confusion amongst people who disagree about what's forward on a calendar.  My understanding of the statements above, however, is consistent with what the posters intended.

RE: Due date moving

on a similar note, have you ever noticed that some people think "improved" means the same thing as "increased?"  

In the case of engine development, for example, somebody might interpret the statement "oil consumption was improved by 50%" to mean "oil consumption increased by 50%," even though oil consumption is understood by both parties involved to be an undesirable behavior that is to be reduced.  

RE: Due date moving

I might go for "changed" rather than "moved".  I think I might speak or casually email "moved" but when I sat down to write something formal it would become "changed".  No good reason.

Though I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

Hg

p.s. Ivymike--do you turn the air conditioning up or down if you want the room to get colder?

RE: Due date moving

definitely up.  you turn the thermostat down, though.

RE: Due date moving

We have an expectant Engineer on staff.  I don't think she wants her due date tampered with.

Larry

RE: Due date moving

I gave up being expectant.  It only leads to disappointment.

Hg

RE: Due date moving

If a meeting is moved ahead by an hour, it happens an hour earlier that originally scheduled.

If you set your watch ahead by an hour you will be late.

RE: Due date moving

I would use "has been modified to" for both instances.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Due date moving

My practice is to say "The time of the meeting has been changed from 9:00 AM to 1:00 PM....", and include date and location as well.

Larry

RE: Due date moving

We're not going to be to late!!

They're going to be fuming!!

RE: Due date moving

To avoid confusion, just say that the date or time has been moved or changed from XXX to XXX. If the recipient cannot figure out that a time or date is sooner or later than another time or date they should not be involved in any schedule.

from (the City of) Barrie, Ontario.

I tried sniffing Coke once, but the ice cubes got stuck in my nose

RE: Due date moving


Colloquially, I always say that the date has 'been moved to the right' if it's delayed .....

and 'moved to the left' if it's brought forward.

This I know is utterly meaningless and indefensible but it's a bit of shorthand which seems to strike a chord with Engineers and Project Managers in the UK.

I agree that it's better to be more formal and precise but we all have spells of casuality and vagueness, and the world's a happier place for it.

John

RE: Due date moving

harrisj,
I like "to the right" except in the example it is moved to another [calendar] page that may be to the left.

Damn engineers, drives my wife nuts that we over-analyse the simplest things.

David

RE: Due date moving

I suppose right and left for time make sense if you are looking at a Ghant chart schedule.

RE: Due date moving

Do those charts go right to left in Israel or the Arab world?  (Or anyplace else the writing goes right to left?)

Hg

RE: Due date moving

They go left to right in the parts of Asia I have been too where the writing goes up and down.

RE: Due date moving

The customer might think that the due date had either slipped or improved.

Of course if it slips he doesn't want to pay until the actual completion date, but if it improves he wants to pay on the original due date (+90 days)

Jeff

RE: Due date moving

All good suggestions here, but I would never let anyone know the date was moved from Dec 1 to Dec 20. It will be less late that way if they aren't aware.

RE: Due date moving

1. The date was pushed back.
2. The date was brought forward.

RE: Due date moving

1. The date has been delayed to such-and-such new date.
2. The date has been accelerated to such-and-such new date.

RE: Due date moving

I have to agree with CorBlimeyLimey.  Keep it simple so as to limit any misunderstanding.  "The due date has moved from XX/XX/XX to XX/XX/XX."

RE: Due date moving

(OP)
Thanks all

I wanted to run the poll to see if I was just strange or what.  How I got involved with this was that I ran a update by email to my team members and noted that my manager "Kevin set the due date Back to 9/27/04".  It had been 9/20/04 and they were aware of that date prior to the email.  My manager was CC with my email.

My manager was confused when I used the word "Back".  He restated or corrected me to say "The due date was moved out to 9/27/04 and the original due date was 9/20/04".

I do not know why he felt this was a issue.  I think others inside our company use the term "back" and did not see any big difference or any advantage of using the word "Out".  

If you check into this deeper it seems that out or back do not fit well with the definition when time is the subject.

anyway thanks for the input.
Have a great weekend, John

RE: Due date moving

I'd have been confused by "back" there too.  To me "back" kind of means "in the wrong direction".  "Out" is okay.

Hg

RE: Due date moving

If it had originally been 9/27/04 and moved to 9/20/04, and then was changed "back to" 9/27/04, it would have made perfect sense to me.

In the given example perhaps the confusion arose from the possible misinterpretation of "back to" as meaning "returned to".

RE: Due date moving

No, you're not just strange.  You point out an interpretation problem that occurs all the time.

Good points, CorBlimeyLimey.  That's the easiest solution.

But how about "The deadline has just been shortened from December 15th to November 15th.  Since today is November 13th, we've really got to get our asses in gear!"

Just being silly ...
 
"Postponed" should be used more often, but because it is often (incorrectly) used to mean "cancelled," a lot of people won't use it.  Of course, sometimes things are postponed without having a new date set when the postponement is announced, so I guess some people would get confused by that.  "Postpone" only takes care of dates being moved further into the future.  I don't know word might be available to indicate, with one word, the moving of a deadline closer to you in time from where it was.

RE: Due date moving

Hmmm ... opposite of postponed ... how about preponed.

from (the City of) Barrie, Ontario.

I tried sniffing Coke once, but the ice cubes got stuck in my nose

RE: Due date moving

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/041022_eclipse_ser...
In fact, the date when the final game of the World Series was played has noticeably moved forward in the fall calendar over the years. In the 1930s, the average date was Oct. 8. By the 1960s, it was Oct. 12. By the 1990s, the typical date of the final Series game had shifted to around Oct. 25.

they must have missed our discussion.

RE: Due date moving

This is why that "spring forward, fall back" mnemonic never helped me.  (Plus if I fall, I usually fall forward.)

Hg

RE: Due date moving

The due date has stretched to December 20 2004.

The due date has contracted to November 15 2004.

RE: Due date moving

Just translating from Spanish: What about advanced and deferred dates, as for payments ?

RE: Due date moving

Just preface it with
"Management is at it again!
Please note revised dates:  ..."

Keep the wheels on the ground
Bob
showshine@aol.com

RE: Due date moving

(OP)
Hi again,
If you look up the meaning of the word "back" and "out" neither one seems well suited to describe dates moving.  Maybe our English language just does not have a good word to work in this application.

OK here's another silly question: If this was a true deadline, how can it change?  In my view if it was a deadline, that defined it as a date that cannot move correct?

Time to go, or I will miss my due date.
Have a productive day, John

RE: Due date moving

Our deadlines can change, with documentation from the client.  We also have drop-dead dates, which usually arise toward the end of a project, and are a week or two into the future.......

Larry

RE: Due date moving

The worst thing that happens to me is when additional tasks are added and the due date remain the same.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Due date moving

In any case, before accepting a due date, always ask for its reason for existence. You have every right to require that this reason be a serious one. Reminds me the Dilbertish kind f due dates like "we want to have something to show to the VP during his annual visit tomorrow"...

RE: Due date moving

I have been working with people from all kinds of cultures and backgrounds and I found it dangerous to apply any assumptions.

So if you change the date give me the original and current dates. Don't get into falling back or springing forward.
I can assure you someone will misinterpret that.
And if you specify today's date don't give me 10/27/04 or 27/10/04, (athough it is not as bad as 10/11/04) give me 27 Oct. 04; or Oct27, 04. That I probably will understand and I am sure anybody else will.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

Different fields or industries seems to have their own conventions.  

In the DOD,  everyone knows what "...to the right" means, but I prefer to state "slipped to the right",  or just "slipped".   The opposite case seems to occur far infrequently,  and I don't think there is a common or slangish expression.  Heck, some might just be dumbfounded if I were to say the due date has been moved "up to xxx".

A bigger question,  not related to  how the date is expressed, is the effect of moving the due date on the project.  Some feel that by being "back on schedule" merely because the due date was changed to reflect reality takes some of the pressure off and more slippage is now likely.  Others never want to see a date all don't agree with.

Ah, never mind;  I'm new here, rambling, and didn't mean to shift the topic.

RE: Due date moving

VeryPicky
Specifying dates opens up a whole new can of worms ... I always use 2004-10-29. To me it is the only logical way to express dates. Year-Month-Day-Hour-Minute-Second.

RE: Due date moving

CorBlimeyLimey

it is also ISO notation if I am not mistaken. But it is a rare occurence to see it in America. Most people seem to favour the month here.

Without limiting people to a single notation there is a way...maybe yours or ISO or any other way as long as it is clear.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

To me it is the only logical way to express dates
The ONLY logical way?  
 * Why would it be particularly illogical to reverse the order of the digits?  (Because everybody reads numbers from left to right, and the value of each digit decreases from left to right?)  
 * What about expressing the year based on a different (cultural) datum?  
 * What about expressing the date as the number of time units (days, years, seconds, take your pick) since a particular datum, like 34506.5?

RE: Due date moving

Quote (ivymike):

The ONLY logical way?
To me ... yes. I realized others (like you) may not agree, that's why I prefaced my statement with "To me"

Quote:

* Why would it be particularly illogical to reverse the order of the digits?  (Because everybody reads numbers from left to right, and the value of each digit decreases from left to right?)
Actually some cultures read from right to left & others from top to bottom. So no, that is not the reason ...it's because I read from left to right & because I find it logical to sort files which use that date format. Again hence the "To me" preface.

Quote:

* What about expressing the year based on a different (cultural) datum?
I am not of a different (cultural) datum?

Quote:

* What about expressing the date as the number of time units (days, years, seconds, take your pick) since a particular datum, like 34506.5?
You've been watching too much Star Trek ... If the majority of people/cultures used such a system then that would be logical ... but they don't, they use a Gregorian/Julian(?) system... and within that system (which I use) "To me" the only logical way to express a date is Year-Month-Day. It is also easier & quicker to write or type.

RE: Due date moving

I think this thread has proved that no two people do things exactly the same(I wish my boss understood that).

I can honestly say that's a good thing.  The world would be a boring place if we all did things the same way.

RE: Due date moving

It is "Julian", Blimey. Gregorian was used to confuse poor children of the East-European Block: "why is the Great October Revolution's anniversary celebrated in November?".

And, Blimey, as much as I want to use your logical notation it is impossible to enforce it on others as long as we have meters and inches.

My proposal: instead of enforcing our logic let's make it user friendly. Avoid ambiguities, be specific not only to yourself but think how others will read and understand your message.
Because sending message without assurance of understanding is like talking without other side listening. Just speaking, and not much of a conversation, really.

And, again, Blimey this does not concern you, because you are such a sensitive communicator.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

One last thought...concern...my own...no charge...

If only one person misunderstands the message and that person is a link in the chain that decides on the success or failure of the undertaking? It might happen that the whole team of people with full understanding will not be able to support the undertaking without the "missing link".

That is why Communication shall be clear to all.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

Quote:

And, again, Blimey this does not concern you, because you are such a sensitive communicator.
Hmmm ... can't decide if that's a compliment or insult . Whichever, it made me laugh anyway.

BTW, I'm not suggesting anyone should be forced to conform to "my" logic, unless it is within a company standard. I use it because it makes sense to me ... and in the hope that others will eventually "see the light" and adopt it.

Also BTW, I never use the shorter form (04-10-29) always 2004-10-29, to avoid confusion. So far I have never seen anyone use a Year-Day-Month format.

Have a great weekend.

RE: Due date moving

[quote CorBlimeyLimey]So far I have never seen anyone use a Year-Day-Month format.[\quote]
Software developers regularly use the YYYYMMDD format within applications because it allows for the sorting and ordering of dates.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Due date moving

CajunCenturion
My point exactly! Year-Month-Day not Year-Day-Month.

RE: Due date moving

"Year-Month-Day not Year-Day-Month." I agree but tell it to some Americans!

I happen to have a bill in front of me. It says:
09/19/04, 09/30/04, 10/18/04, 10/17/04
Fortunately these are easily deciphered but millions of people might get one day 04/01/05 and I have no idea what to think about that date.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

In written reports, I always use the format "06JUN2004", it can't get much clearer that that.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Due date moving

Quote (VeryPicky):

"Year-Month-Day not Year-Day-Month." I agree but tell it to some Americans!
Most Americans don'e use either of these formats, they use the Month, Day, Year format, except for the military.  The standard USA military format is Day Month Year, the same as MadMango uses in his written reports.  The DMY format at least has the positive attribute of going from the specific to the general, just as the YMD is from the general to the specific.  I agree that any other format is illogical in that it follows no perceptable pattern.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Due date moving

Question --- Would anyone even dream of expressing a time as Seconds-Minutes-Hours?
Answer --- NO

So where's the logic in flipping the sequence or pattern when it comes to expressing a Date?

A Year is no less specific than a Day, in fact it is more specific because most of the days (numerically speaking) are repeated twelve times during the year & mean little without the defining month.

Have a great Halloween everyone.
Dated: 2004-10-29 4:14:50pm

RE: Due date moving

It was a bad choice of terms on my part to use general and specific.  I should have said from least significant to most significant or the reverse.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Due date moving

How can we agree on anything else if we can not agree on how to write time...?

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

Hmmm ... maybe we should make time & pick a date to discuss this. Any suggestions ????

CajunCentury
You metioned the militarys method of date usage. I would not even consider following the example of a faction which uses a 24 hour clock and verbally pronounce a time as XX hundred hours.

RE: Due date moving

Using a 24 hour clock certainly removes the need of specifying am/pm and removes any ambiguity about the actual time.

With respect to xx hundres hours, what is the proper way to state in UTC terms that it is six o'clock in the morning (06:00:00)?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Due date moving

I should've asked CorBlimeyLimey if it is the 24 hour clock that you object to, the use of xx hundred hours, both, or is a decision based on (dis)passionate feelings about the military in general?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Due date moving

ZULU time.  That's the ticket.

and don't forget the joy of sexagesimal arithmetic!

Larry

RE: Due date moving

Cajon'

I fully agree with the use of the 24 hour clock. My use of the am/pm previously is a habit I am trying to lose.

In UTC (or 24hr GMT) I would pronounce times as ten-o-clock or ten-fifteen or fifteen hours or fifteen-o-clock. (although that last one just doesn't sound right)

I must admit however to having little good feelings about the military mindset. Oh-six hundred hours for 6am? For starters the Oh should be a zero & the hundred is completely superfluous. Six-hours or six-o-clock.


MechSlip'

I look forward to the sex ... it's the agesimal stuff that gets me.

RE: Due date moving

It is between 5 and 7 in latin ...or something...

BTW what does ZULU mean in time designation?

I understand that ZULU relates to South Africa. But there is no time there...so I see a serious inconsistency in terms. They don't call me VeryPicky for nothing, you know.

And btw Blimey no insult was intended in one of my prior posts.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

If the majority of people/cultures used such a system then that would be logical ... but they don't, they use a Gregorian/Julian(?) system... and within that system (which I use) "To me" the only logical way to express a date is Year-Month-Day. It is also easier & quicker to write or type.

It sounds to me like you're confusing "logical" with "practical."  Any system with a basis in reason is logical, regardless of whether the logic applies to your situation or not.  Which of the logical systems to use is a matter of practicality.  

Sample problem: If someone decided a hundred years ago to travel by horse to reach his destination in a hurry (because it happened to be the fastest method available), would you say that the decision doesn't seem logical to you, because you'd take a cab instead?

  

RE: Due date moving

I understand now. ZULU relates to UTC that is short for Coordinated Universal Time. Blimey we are not the only ones confused here.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

It's too bad that the orbits of the Earth and Moon aren't metric.  

We in the US just changed from Daylight Savings time to Standard time.  The railroads developed Standard time in Britain and the US to make their scheduling easier.

Quote:

At the age of 78, in a moment of whimsey, Benjamin Franklin wrote An Economical Project, a discourse on the thrift of natural versus artificial lighting. He included several funny regulations that Paris might adopt to help. Over two centuries later, nations around the world use a variation of his concept to conserve energy and more fully enjoy the benefits of daylight.

Take a look at http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html
for some history.

Larry

RE: Due date moving


ivymike
I understand what you are saying, but no I am not confusing "logical" with "practical" ... I just should not have been so bombastic in my previous statement ... allow me to restate as "To me it is the most logical way to express dates."

RE: Due date moving

(OP)
Wow
I opened this post today and almost did not recognize the subject.  I hope everybody is calm and collected this morning (wow I almost used the controversial AM).  Maybe it is a good idea to stop now.

Here in the USA we see people using different words to describe the same thing due to the fact they are one generation apart.  I think we must respect others and try to understand them better.
 
Have a productive day, John

RE: Due date moving


toolmantwo
We are always calm & collected ... often in disagreement maybe ... but always calm & collected.

I agree though, it is probably time to move on to bigger & better things ... this topic has become very dated

RE: Due date moving

Just to confuse the dat issue further, my experience with a "Julian" calendar had the year, and the days since the start of the year.  No month mentioned.  Hence, today, 5 Nov 2004, is 2004309 (in practice, only the last digit of the year was ever used).  I tried to find a table to give the day count, and found this website, http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.html, which gives an entirely different definition of Julian date.

Chris

RE: Due date moving

Oh, good lord.  Who was using that??

Hg

RE: Due date moving

Toolmantwo

I don't think anybody was trying to prove his/hers system is better. And certainly nobody was intending to offend anybody else.

We are looking for universal, common notation of time.

Honestly I don't like that one presented by duck0601...

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Due date moving

Julian is nice, once you get used to it.  In the Navy we always used Julian dates.  It's just a simple sequential numbering of days, starting on January 1st as Julian Date 04001, February 1st would be 04032, etc.

I think presenting the date with year first helps in organizing files better.  If I know something was done in 2001, I look for the year first, followed by the month and finally the day.  It seems fairly logical to me.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

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