This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
(OP)
“There are a lot of [science and engineering] jobs going to individuals with an associate’s degree and some with only a high school diploma.”
http://www.nspe.org/etweb/11004educationreport.asp
Start of rant>>>
This scares me that people with out the proper education level are doing engineering work or even using the title. That all you need is a high school diploma to get a science or engineering job. We beat this dead horse before, but I sill think that this is wrong. For a person to call them self an engineer, at a minimum that person should have a bachelors degree (accredit by ABET of course) in the field that they are practicing. If this becomes a popular trait, soon we will have a country full of engineers that does not have the proper educational back ground. I really blame the companies that hire people with out the proper educational back ground. My guess is that they must be cheaper to hire than a fully educated engineer. In my opinion it is unethical for a company to tell their customers or even to the public that they have engineers on their staff. In reality the company has people that do not have the proper educational training to be engineers on their staff.
End of rant>>>
Thank you for indulging me.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane





RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Part of the problem may be that non-engineering jobs are getting labeled as engineering, which cheapens the meaning of the word but isn't necessarily a reflection of inadequate training. (Then again, I could be completely wrong.)
Also, if there are people out there without the proper training labeled "engineer", part of the issue is that existing laws (at least in some states) about who can and can't be called an engineer aren't being enforced. I'm not sure who it would be up to to blow the whistle on that--the local professional engineering society?
Hg
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Are you so arrogant to believe only a person with an engineering degree can be an engineer. Look in your own shop if you work at a manufacturing plant. Who designs your fixtures to manufacture your designs? A degreed manufacturing engineer, I doubt it. Doing a time study requires an industrial engineering degree? Orville or Wilbur Wright neither had a college degree.
People who understand forces, materials, tolerancing, processes and designs are the people who can be an engineer. Most of these people in today's world do have degrees but it is not necessary to be a good designer. Understanding and knowledge are the keys and freshly graduated engineers still require lots of mentoring and desire to become a good engineers.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I think you are right, there are lots of people out there in engineering that are highly skilled at their jobs and who understand all manner of engineering related topics but do not have the propoer training/qualifications. These people should not be called engineers, they do not have the training to be called as such.
In a hospital, you are hardly likely to see a doctor clearing down bed sheets or administering medicines that is the work of the nurse. Never the less it is the doctor that decides on who much medicine to give the patient and through his instructions the nurse administers. In the same breath, you cannot walk into a hospital as a doctor unless you have the necessary qualifications to be called one. This is exactly the same in engineering regardless of who is doing what job.
Unless you have the necessary training/qualifications to be called an engineer then you are not one.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Having said that, I would be the first to agree that when non degreed people call themselves engineers it is a problem. A couple good examples are the maintenance guys in a large building, or the tech with a high school education that runs a sound board or a camera in the broadcast business. In both of these cases it is common for them to be refered to as engineers, when they generally are not degreed engineers, and are certainly not registered professional engineers.
I have had some involvement with the recording business over the years, and I called our PE board and asked about the use of the term broadcast or recording engineer. The PE board rep told me that while using the term engineer for these people was not legal unless they were registered PE's, that the board generally ignored it as it does not affect public safety. I guess they have to choose their battles....
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Please don’t take me the wrong way. I am not attacking the intelligent people, but the companies that abuse the use of the engineering tile and the profession as a whole. If anybody off the street can come in and take an engineering job or given an engineering title with just a high school degree, this will bring down the professional persona of the title and profession as a whole. Right now I do feel that we still have a professional persona, but if companies keep hiring less than a bachelor degree employee we will have a country full of non-educated trained engineers that companies can take advantage.
<<< Are you so arrogant to believe only a person with an engineering degree can be an engineer.>>>
Why is it that every time somebody says that in order to be an engineer you got to have an engineering degree that this is an arrogant point of view? To have the proper training and credentials, does this indicate that this person is an arrogant sob? Well when I start looking for a doctor for my daughter I will look for the brightest arrogant sob possible. A doctor that believes that in order to be a doctor that person should have the proper credentials. If I have to be represented in the court of law, I will look for the best arrogant sob lawyer possible to defend or represent me in court. If I have to get medicine from a pharmacy, I will look for the arrogant sob credentials on the wall to make sure that the person in charge will make sure that I am getting the right medication. If I want to wire up my house, I will look for an electrician that has his arrogant sob electrician certification. So why when companies look for engineers, they are taking in people with a minimum of an associate’s degree? I feel that it is arrogant of the people that do not have the right credentials to practice in something that other people have worked so hard to obtain.
<<< People who understand forces, materials, tolerancing, processes and designs are the people who can be an engineer. Most of these people in today's world do have degrees but it is not necessary to be a good designer. Understanding and knowledge are the keys and freshly graduated engineers still require lots of mentoring and desire to become a good engineers.>>>
In my company, I collaborate with my designers and draftsmen. They have great ideas that we put towards the design, but at the end of the mechanical qualification test of vibrations, shock, and thermal and if there are any problems guess who the first person they call upon? Is it the draftsmen? Well no because he is responsible for the drawings, he has no understanding of vibration, shock or thermal. Is it the designer? Well no because he only understands the standards, he may have a good feeling on vibration, shock, and thermal, but does not know how to do the analysis so he takes his directions from the engineer (my designer will even tell you that he is not the engineer). If you guessed “engineer” you are correct. The engineer is the only one that can do the analysis of vibration, shock, and thermal to get to the root cause of the problem BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED BACK IN COLLEGE AND HAS A DEGREE ON HOW TO DO THE ANALSYSIS. The draftsman can not do this, the designer can not do this, but an educated bachelor holding mechanical college person can. Pleas note that the powers that be did not go to the draftsmen, did not go to the designer (which both does not need a bachelors degree), but the “engineer” who understands a little bit more than the draftsmen and designer on “engineering” topics of vibration, shock, and thermal.
The Wright brothers never missed represented them selves to be engineers (that would be to arrogant) why should anybody in this day and aged start?
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
<<<This report shows that science and engineering jobs are not only for the highly educated,” says John Tsapogas of the National Science Foundation’s Human Resources Statistics Program. “There are a lot of [science and engineering] jobs going to individuals with an associate’s degree and some with only a high school diploma.”>>>
I’m taking this insert that “science and engineering jobs are not only for the highly educated” as in the jobs that are usually for the highly educated people are being done by people who have less than a bachelors degree.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Is it kind of like copyright cases where the same name can be used by two companies as long as they're in separate industries so there's no confusion?
Hg
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I currently am a certified manufacturing engineer by Society of Manufacturing Engineering, SME. I do not have a degree. What do I call myself a manufacturing technician?
I've signed off on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fixturing and modified machine concepts on millions of dollars of product. I have solved part problems where design engineers were just scratching their heads.
My sister is a certified nurse anaesthetist CRNA, she orders and administers drugs without a doctor standing over her shoulder or even supervising. She keeps the patients alive on the operating table. She does have a degree on anaesthesia. Doctors aren't the only ones who can order drugs for patients.
Imagine a non-degreed black man from the south teaching heart surgeons about surgery. Designing sugical instruments. Collaborating on the first open heart surgery. That man existed, Vivien Thomas.
This is my last post on this topic as many people still believe you cannot learn from experience and on the job search for knowledge and understanding. Reading a book(s), studying the topic, learning to use the formulas, understanding the math, and doing experiments can be done by people without a degree and not in a university setting. Getting people to believe you know what you are talking about is the problem.
I happen to be in school now because I cannot get a job without a degree. I will have an engineering technology degree in the spring not an engineering degree. My school cannot offer an engineering degree due to politics between state universities. Even colleges squabble between themselves.
I've seen the lackadasical attitude of some college students and question the amount of knowledge learned by some of these individuals but somehow these people learn enough on the job to get it done. Huh, imagine that, on the job training. A PE requires so many years of on the job experience. Experience is a valuable teacher and so many people slight its affect. Intelligent people exist without degrees and even certifications.
Just recently a high school dropout piloted Spaceship 1 into space and became the first FAA commercial astronaut.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I must back down on my point about the medical profession. With a member of your family being in it you obviously have a much clearer insite into this aspect.
I think maybe you miss understood my point. I have never said that people without degrees are useless or that they cannot do the job or that they should not get recognition for their work. Indeed I completely agree with you that you dont need to have a degree to be good at the job I also agree in the fact that some university graduates that come out with degrees have NO IDEA about what they are trying to achieve. I know of degree qualified designers that have come out of university and gone straight into an engineering disipline only to design something that is impossible to manufacture.
I myself did the on-the-job training and only went to get my degree as I could get another day off at college a week!(I did it day release) I didn't need and dont need a degree.
My point is this, there are a lot of people out there that by the very nature that they can unscrew a plug top refer to themselves as engineers and this is NOT RIGHT. This is what gives the profession a bad name. People ask me what do I do, I say I am an engineer they then ask me which car garage I work for!! This is what is incorrect.
I temporarily left the engineering profession to study computer programming as I wish to get into the automation/control side of engineering. Having spent 4 years now in IT I am trying to get back into engineering. Now because people see that the last thing I did was IT they think that I cannot do engineering and that is whith a degree (and all the other qualification AND EXPERIENCE!!!!) sometimes it is not as clear cut as we want it to be.
Hope I didn't offent you with my views, good luck at your degree and I hope it all works out for you.
Kev
Fellow Manufacturing Systems Engineer!
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
o The standard BILLING rate (where I live) for a Senior Engineer is about $62.00/hr. The local car dealerships charge $70.00 to $75.00/hr. for a mechanic. Most engineering careers peak at the level of Senior Engineer. (Let's not talk about the exceptional high paid engineering manager.)
o Engineers will relocate if they feel that a job is stable and offers career opportunities. Engineers will not relocate if they feel that the job is temporary. Employers want contract engineers at the price of permanent employees. A good discriminator is whether or not they will pay relocation cost. Most will not.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
In terms of "value to society" engineers rank low on the percieved value scale. If engineering practiced "professional birth control" as other professions do, maybe we would become more valuable to society and serve the profession by admitting only the best to the professions.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
<<<The more we engineers argue who can do engineering, the more people take it upon themselves to bypass us and just do engineering.>>>
This is what’s happing in our profession. But, we beat this dead horse before. Companies are looking for cost effective people to fill engineer jobs, even if that person does not have an engineering degree. Sooner or later we will have engineers asking if you want fries and a coke with that service order.
Case in point of having an engineering degree (from a mechanical engineering point of view), in my last company I worked on a project that parts of it went to other departments and one part went outside to an outside vendor. We have specs are harsh in heat and vibration. We gave the outside vendor the specs to design too. Six months later at the “post” critical design review, we came together to make sure that our (mine and the other departments) design and outside vendor’s design would meet the spec. The person that came from the outside vendor introduced him self as the “mechanical engineer” of the design. When the presentation started, we shared our analysis that showed that our design had good margin of working to the other groups in our company and the outside vendor. The other departments did the same. When it was the outside vendor’s turn, his presentation ran like a sales pitch with no analysis to show that his design would work to our spec. The program manger asked if they did any analysis to show margin. The mechanical engineer response was that he could not do the analysis. The program manger was perplexed and said that most of this was straight out of college analysis. In trying to save face, the mechanical engineer said that he did not go to college, that he was the mechanical designer type and only did the design. To make a long story short, it took another four weeks for us to do the analysis and corrections for the outside vendor. There were some issues that had to be taken care of, but at the end we showed (with the new improvements) that the outside vendors design would work. After qualifications, we were doing pretty well. The program manager from that point forward with every outside vendor made sure that who ever was working on the design was a least a college graduate.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
There are laws in all States defining who can do engineering and they are very clear. Unfortunately, the enforcement of these laws in lax.
There are few laws in exempt practice and maybe that is what you are refering to. That subject usually gets discussed with vibrant color in many of the rooms.
A PE is required if you provide engineering services for someone in ANY disipline of engineering unless you are an employee for an exempt industry. Only then can you provide engineering services to the company you work for, and only that company as long as you are an employee. You need a PE if you provide engineering services for an industry and you are not an employee...
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I was refering to engineering as a whole. I have worked in both industry and consulting. I have been an employee in both environments. I am currently an employee in a consulting firm. We have many individuals in my current employer's firm who are not PEs and are doing engineering. Before I became a PE, I was still doing engineering. So it indeed is the case that someone can do engineering under a variety of education/experience/license combinations. The only thing that a person can't do without a PE is:
Perform Consulting Engineering as an Owner.
Since most engineers are employees, most of them won't need to be PEs. In my case, the PE serves as a credential rather than a state regulatory requirement. Why? Because the owner of the firm is a PE and he is the one who stamps the drawings.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
the laws in the states are very clear. I have had the opportunity in my involvement to read all but 2 states laws and they make no reference ot "performing consulting engineering as an owner." They mostly say something on the line of non engineers cannot provide engineering services that require the use of scientific or mathmatic principals as they pertain to engineering. The fines for soing so can be quite sever and for the most part, engineering can only be dispensed as stated in my previous post.
I am not picking a fight with you here, I just want to make sure statements like this are very clear as someone may go out and practice engineering and get fined or hurt their careers based on what we post here.
Non PE's working in a consulting firm work under the supervision of PE's. This is always the case, or if it isn't, it may be illegal practice of engineering. They may be doing engineering,accounting, design, or copying for that matter...
take care....
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Just a question...what is the definition of non-engineers? As in non PEs?
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
In my latest statement, non engineers would mean non PE's, sorry for the confusion in my post...
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
You seem to be interpreting the state regulations a little differently than me. I'd like to get your opinion on the following scenario:
a) A person graduates with a BSCE.
b) That person gets a job at a consulting engineering firm.
c) That person works under the supervision of a PE.
d) That person does structural design of buildings.
Would you say that the person in question was doing engineering? Or would you say he was doing designing? Or would refer to what he was doing with some other description?
In my opinion, he was doing engineering, but I'd like to get your opinion.
Thanks.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
That person would be doing engineering under the supervision of a PE. Lets change your question to something a bit different for fun. Lets say that person had no degree and follows the same scenario you laid out. Would that person be doing engineering? I would say yes, and again under the supervision of a PE. All work is being done for the PE, and legally, under the PE's direction. So I think there is again, another confusing defination. Ultimately, the PE is the only one who can take responsibility for the work and present it to the "public."
Where I work, I am not an owner, but I sign and seal drawings and documents.
I also consult outside my normal work, and to do so legally, I need the PE. Without the PE, one cannot provide engineering services to the "public" unless they do so under the guidelines of exempt practice.
the laws are tough, and I think the more we talk about them, the better informed we can all be..and who knows, maybe we can change the laws if we don't liket hem...
take care..
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Thanks
Kev
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
PE means Professional Engineer, but check out this web site by National Society of Professional Engineers for a better flavor of what it means to be a PE.
http://www.nspe.org/lc1-why.asp
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
PE = Professional Engineer; it is a term to signify that the practicing engineer has passed requirements of a state board here in the states and is licensed to practice engineering.
As I understand, things are a bit different there on the island.
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
The battle to make 'Engineer' a notifiable title (like Doctor) in the UK has been lost, although if people want to they can become registered European Engineers and move from Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss to 'Euring'. Personally, I don't know how to pronounce it! In much of Europe 'Engineer' (or the equivalent in the local language) IS notifiable- I was called "Dottor Ingineur" while working in Portugal, for example.
Legally, there's also little regulation on who can do 'engineering' in the UK. Insurance companies and certifying authorities are very nervous insuring or approving plant etc that wasn't designed or checked by a 'competent person'. But generally, the only time there's a legal aspect to competency is if there's an accident: if it all goes tits up you've got to show in court that the person who designed it was 'competent'. One of the easiest ways in the UK to proove you are a 'competent person' is to be a Chartered Engineer (which I think is equivalent to PE in the States?). So for example, I became chartered so that I could sign off oil & gas reserves estimates as a legally accepted 'competent person'.
Currently there are two routes to becoming a Chartered Engineer- an accredited degree, followed by a minimum period of professional training and experience, or lots (decades) of professional training and experience on a case by case basis (and maybe passing the Engineering Council's exams too, depending upon the individual and the Chartering Institution- the Institute of Mechanical Engineers is famously strict, for example). There are moves to try and stop the non-degree route to chartered engineer, in an attempt to "raise the status of the engineering profession" (see first paragraph!), by introducing the new professional qualification of Chartered Engineering Technician for those without a degree. At the same time, many 3 year BSc (Eng) engineering degrees are loosing their accreditation: accredited degrees are being restricted to the 4 year BEng or MEng degrees.
As a side issue, in the UK for centuries there were two kinds of medical professional: a Doctor, who'd been to university, gave out drugs etc and Surgeons, who cut people open. Surgeons were self taught, didn't go to university, were called 'Mr' and were looked down upon by 'proper' doctors. Gradually, the two professions linked up, so that now, you start in medical school as a 'Mr' or 'Ms' (or whatever), become a 'Dr' on graduation and then eventually revert to 'Mr' when you become a hosptial consultant or surgeon!!!
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
DrillerNic,
it is great to have someone else here that is from the UK or at least understands the UK side of the engineering market.
I finished studying for my degree in Manufacturing systems (which is an accredited degree at least it was!) while I finished this though I changed from an engineering profession to an IT consultant so that after a couple of years I could return to the engnineering profession with enough programming experience to move into the automation/Control side of engineering. Well to cut a long story short I have been looking for a position for the last 18 months without any luck. I get offered technicians jobs in maintenance or service but this is NOT what I want to do. I thought about joining the IMechE to see if that would help. Maybe this is the wrong place for this post but what am I likely to get out of joining it and would it help on my quest for a job that I WANT and that I CAN do.
Thanks
Kev
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
In the UK (influenced here in EngTips) that the engineering title and profession is on the down slide (please correct me if Im wrong, I would like to be more optimistic about your job economy for engineers), because of people and companies are taking advantage of the engineering title to have the facade of importance of their jobs. This trend is starting (have started) and is begging to drag the profession (classic engineering, i.e. mechanical, electrical, civil, chemical, and legitimate braches that fall under each practice) down with it. I can’t tell you how many times at a social function that when I say that I’m a mechanical engineer, that they start telling me their car problems.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
When I tell people I am an "engineer" I often get "oh yea, I am going to school to be an engineer too, I have 2 weeks left in my 6 week program, then I will be an engineer like you too, whats it like being an engineer???..." I laugh, but it is not funny to them...That is the real scarey thing...
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
This is going round in circles. I posted comments like this right at the start of this post!!!
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
There are many states where one cannot publically call oneself an engineer unless you have a PE license. Therefore, if you don't have an engineer's license and cannot call yourself an engineer, can your job fuction be described as engineering? This is not necessarily my opinion, but lets get some feedback.
I think that we may end up in a conundrum if we say that people who work on buildings (like me) are engineers doing engineering, but that people in industry (who do some really innovative work) are not. Lets hear your thoughts.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Hg
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
Licensure is similar, except that your own personal liability is much greater(E&O), so more opportunity for jobs/advancement/pay exists.
I'm not a P.E., but may test in the future...want more experience before I stick my neck out that far.
-Scott
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I wish you luck in testing for the PE, it is always great to hear the fellow engineers are going for it....
EddyC:
In you reference to job functions as to whether or not one can call themselves an engineer...I think this is a key in our thinking. Just who should determine who is qualified to be an engineer? Politicans? exempt persons? public? PE's? Industry? Accountants? Right now, there are a lot of people defining engineers, and not many of them are engineers. They have little or no clue what it means to be an engineer. That is why I look to the PE. It is not a device to say PE is better than a non-PE, but it does allow us engineers to say...if you want engineering, you need this minimum level. If you are not using this minimum level then......(there would be some type of penalty). We engineers can then make the PE what we want, not what other non engineers want. Then, non degreed people wanting to be engineers know what they have to accomplish to reach this goal.
I too like circles...in my world of straight lines, change is good.
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
This may be taken as a positive sign for the classically trained engineer.
However, others see is as another ploy to purge the workforce of as many personnel as possible. First, any advancement for the non-pE null, these become stagnant. Second for the high grade non-PE, they are scrd as of the constant reorg's will prohibit a re-assignment into an engineering roll. It will be fun to see how it all plays out. No-staff, design build is the real goal.
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I agree with you, quality is in the can now a day...and in my opinion, it is affecting the public in a big way..
just my thoughts...
BobPE
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
<<< Right now, there are a lot of people defining engineers, and not many of them are engineers. They have little or no clue what it means to be an engineer.>>>
BobPE brings up a good point that there are a lot of people out there that are defining engineers and not many of them are engineers. This rings very true in the exempt industries. Just follow along with me here.
The way I see it is that the exempt and non-exempt fields are like parallel universes. These two fields of engineering practice exist at the same time. Now in the non-exempt universes there seems to be order. There is a definition of who can be an engineer, how to be an engineer, who will police the engineers, even an anti virus mechanism to keep non-engineers at bay.
Now in the exempt universes, there is complete chaos. Where anybody can define who can be an engineer (HR and managers that are not engineers), how to be an engineer (all you need is a high school diploma), and nobody to police the charlatans. Maybe, just maybe, we need some sort of organization within the exempt universes that will act like the Professional Engineering Board (made up of engineers) that will help the HR and managers to define what an engineer does and what kind of credentials that are required (a minimum of a ABET accredited bachelors degree in that field). Also, monitor the integrity of the companies of hiring the right people with the right credentials.
To work in the exempt universes as an engineer, may be we have to come up with a title like “Professional Exempt Engineer” to indicate that person is competent enough to work in companies, but can not take liability over their designs. This title would shadow how PEs get their license. First take four years of engineering education from an accredited school (like the four years of engineering experience between FE/EIT and PE) and pass exams (like taking the PE exam twice a year for four years) that prove that the person is competent in engineering.
Well I’m going to vote…every body get out and vote!
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: This is another sign that engineering is being dragged into the gutter
I have worked for 2 different firms for the past 7-1/2 years in the non-exempt field (ie. consulting engineering firms). I have found there is just as much anarchy here in regard to who is an engineer as there is in the exempt field (where I also worked for 9 years). My current employer has numerous non-PEs who perform engineering and have the title "engineer" on their business cards. They are also marketed as "engineers" in our proposals. Some of these individuals supervise PEs. We also have PEs who supervise projects located in states where they are not licensed. We also have PEs who supervise & stamp projects that are not in their areas of competence. I have also seen a lot of rubber stamping at this job. I make it a point to stay clear of all this nonsense, as I don't want to have the state boards come after me. Others, sadly, don't mind taking such risks.