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Professionalism
5

Professionalism

Professionalism

(OP)
I just started a new job here and one of my goals is to be proffesional in all aspect, whether it is design task, communication, attitude, etc. can you guys shed some light on this.

APH

RE: Professionalism

IMO, part of it would be ... work and don't stand around and talk or talk on phone for long, don't listen to or pass on rumors, dress the part. I can go on, but these are my biggest annoyances.

RE: Professionalism

Be a team player.  Don't make waves.  Play along and Brown-nose a little bit.  Do all this despite any moral objections you may have.  Dissent even on moral grounds is generally not appreciated, especially if it can cause a "movement" within the company.  "Professional" can mean "mature", but it also can stink of "impersonal" and "impartial," which can rob you of your engineering or business opinion, or even some of the milder ethics, if it opposes that of superiors.  The trick is to remain "professional" until such major ethical dillemmas arise.  

Don't let minor personal frustrations with the company or managers influence the quality of your work, the respectfulness of your communication, or your general demeanor around the water cooler.  And if you have personal objections you need to report... communicate them PRIVATELY to people who matter and you know you can trust.  That's my best advice.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Professionalism

I agree with every word of aspearin1's second paragraph, but the first seems a little too conservative to me.  I wouldn't last a month in a job where I had to be that way.  (If you do consider making any waves, be very, very sure that the relevant people in power truly believe you're worth the trouble.)

Back to presentation...One thing to monitor in addition to business wardrobe, firm handshake, and general etiquette would be your oral and written communication skills.  If you don't think you could describe yourself as highly articulate (not all engineers can), consider taking some classes in both public speaking and technical writing.  Keep in mind, too, that you will need different attitudes and bearings in different situations.  How you act (and dress) in the office may need to be different from how you will act if you have to go to a plant or jobsite.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

Communicate more with co-workers, via emails or other means.  Also follow-up conversations with email summaries to ensure you are after the same goals.

Use the tools you have available to your advantage, such as Outlook Calendar to schedule meetings.

During working hours, work.  Save the chit-chat and jokes for breaks and lunch.

Don't let your personal life interfere with your corporate life (to a reasonable degree).

Dress the part (as mentioned), leave the jeans and t-shirts at home.

Just some pointers.  To me when I hear "be professional" I take it as co-workers are looking to me as a role model, and upper management is looking for me to set a good example.  You can be professional without compromising your ethics, morals, back-stabing or brown-nosing.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Professionalism

Find someone you identify with as a true professional, and always ask yourself what "he/she" would do in any situation. Be it in work habits, attitude, dress or design.

Remember attitude is 85% of your success.
Skill and education can be learned.

Start reading good self help books, always have a book to read everyday, for at least 20 minutes. Breaks are good for this. Authors such as Bob Pike, Zig Ziglar, Jim Henning, Nido Qubein, Harvey Mackay and Patricia Fripp are always good starts.

Smile.

Shut up.

Speak up.

Treat others as they would want you to treat them.

Remember, you are being watched...every day all day... don't do anything stupid.

RE: Professionalism

I suppose I shouldn't mention that I'm sitting here in jeans, T-shirt, and sandals, and not just because it's Friday.

Actually it's a pretty good illustration of starting out doing everything exactly right till you feel out the territory and find out where the lines are (or what you can usually get away with).  When I finished school, I went out and bought a very large bag of Clothing That Is Not Jeans Or T-Shirts, and that's what I wore here for months.  Now I drag that stuff out if I'm headed anywhere other than my isolated little office.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

Same here.  Started with business casual, and quickly learned that the shop and labs depreciate the value of that clothing.  I figure, if work made my clothes this way, then I can wear these clothes to work.  Personally, it's my belief that if you don't have customer interaction, then be comfortable.  But dressing "professionally" does help get you noticed and gets you recognized as a professional, who takes pride in his appearance and has an attention to detail.  Those are key attributes you'll want to show up in your work.  Some of my co-workers have invested in those Stain-Guard pants, and they've had some luck with that.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

RE: Professionalism

To add to asperin's second paragraph.

Don't let personal frustrations influence the content of your work.  Any communication, written or verbal, should focus on the technical issues at hand and your engineering assessment of them, not your feelings about them.

RE: Professionalism

(OP)
All are very respectable responds. I've worked for 4 years in the previous company and there are many engineers (including my supervisor) who I think were very proffesional and I want to be that way. MintJulep brought out a very good point about professionalism in the design/engineering matter. Aspearin1 also brought a very good point, being able to pay attention to detail is one of my weaknesses, especially when I am under the gun. I understand that attitude is very important as being a good engineer. I think I don't have issue with clothing, since I'm pretty conservative my self.

By the way, I'm still listening...

Thanks
APH

RE: Professionalism

It's an old book but still worth reading and applying.
The Human Side of Enterprise by Douglas McGregor.  When you are a theory "Y"  person you are a professional.

RE: Professionalism

Remember when trying to be professional not to forget to be an Engineer. Engineering has its own sets of rights and wrongs. NEVER let relationships become personal, always focus on the work to be done. Try to complete tasks on time but don't be less than thorough. Make sure that your managers know how your work is going and make sure that anyone working for you knows what they have to do.

RE: Professionalism

Don't talk about your personal life right off the bat.  It is nobody's business that you went to see your grandmother and your parents on Saturday, that you went to Church on Sunday morning, and that you played basketball with your niece for 2 hours friday night!  However, once you make friends that you know are going to stick around even if you leave that company, then get friendly by all means.  Also, don't be moody at work.  The last thing you want people to do is talk about the moody you and your personal life!

Coka

RE: Professionalism

build your personal goals on solid moral standards, then lay them out in front of you and begin the journey. You can consider other's presence, but the journey is yours alone. Provide yourself with the tools you'll need (education, health, social)and continue to evaluate if you are ontrack by being employeed with the current firm, within the current field.

What does this have to do with professionalism?, depends on you desires, cause in the end it doesn't matter what they think, it's if you are satisfied with your own performance.

RE: Professionalism

2
I notice that no one (other than the OP, APH, with 'design task') has mentioned the other side of professionalism (besides appearances and other such characteristics). That is, doing the work correctly so that the building doesn't fall down, or the airplane crash, or whatever it is that you're working on.

It is at least a two-dimensional parameter ('sandals vs. shoes' along one side, and 'flaming wrecks vs. design perfection' along the other). I believe that the latter axis is slightly more important that the former axis (keyword 'slightly'). But both are important.

RE: Professionalism

Straw man, VE1BLL.

The difference is that on the latter "axis" there's no question whatsoever where one should operate, hence no point of discussing it.  At least I hope to the divine aspect of your choice that no engineer is sitting there debating, "Hmmm...first day new job...should I do all the calcs?  No one ever told me in school whether I should do that or just pull numbers out of my butt and make the widget look pretty..."

(Actually it's on the job where one learns the situations under which one actually *can* pull numbers out of one's butt, as said butt gains knowledge and experience, but that's probably another topic for another time.)

Hg

RE: Professionalism

"...no point of discussing it."

Ah yes... They shouldn't exist, and yet they do! ('They' being those that occupy the 'Nice Shoes' but 'Incompetent' corner of the graph.) I'm sure that we've all met them.

My point is to remind us that the 'optics' of professionalism should be kept in perspective to what's even more important.

I just thought that it stood out like a sore thumb that no one had mentioned it since the top of the thread.

It's a point worthy of, at least, a mention (as a point of universal agreement, not argument).

RE: Professionalism

To discuss it implies that it comes into question, that it's a matter of choice to be technically competent in what one does.

The "nice shoes but incompetent" contingent isn't that way because they thought, "Hmm, where should I be on the competence continuum?  Competent?  Incompetent?  Gosh, incompetent sure sounds neato."  No one chooses to be an idiot, and it's those who don't know they're idiots that are the most dangerous.

On the other hand, shoes and attitude are always a choice, and there are many possible acceptable ways to go.  This is a thread about those matters that *are* up in the air, not those that go without saying.

Raising the point you raise won't give any useful information to anyone who isn't an incompetent idiot (and by raising it you imply that maybe someone here is one, which is part of why my hackles are up), and unfortunately it wouldn't set any incompetent idiots on the path to righteousness either because the biggest problem with incompetent idiots is that they don't know they're incompetent idiots, so they never recognize themselves in such words of warning.  So you've accomplished nothing (other than keeping me moderately entertained on a slow morning).

It's kind of like if someone posted asking for driving directions from New York to LA and you give a lecture on proper use of turn signals.  Irrelevant and condescending.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

I apologise to you that my postings were apparently not sufficiently clear, to you. I'm wondering if I should bother to try again, but I will anyway...

Competence includes being careful (avoiding or catching the inevitable mistakes). Being careful IS a matter of free will.  One example: consciously keeping your confidence level somewhere just below your competence level. Another example might to avoid jumping to conclusions about what you think you read (ahem...). It's an overall approach.

In other words, competence is partly an attitude and it is a critical part of 'professionalism'. Just because it is 'motherhood', I'm still entitled to mention it without anyone taking it personally.

Perhaps you could read my postings with a more open mind and try not look for insults.  None were intended and (even after a careful review) I find that none exist.

Have a nice day.

RE: Professionalism

On the other hand, professionalism can be subjective. I see nothing professional at all about wearing T-shirts and sandals to work. I prefer business casual as the least appropriate, shirt and tie is much more professional.

I also see it unprofessional to call someone "straw man" for no reason. I saw VE1BLL posting a valid opinion; the offensive response seem to be subject to guilt?

But that's just me, and being prefessional allows others to be others. So APH let's have that as a lesson on how not to react.

RE: Professionalism

I think that he meant a 'straw man' argument - meaning a weak or unimportant argument (or position). It wasn't an insult and I didn't take it as one.

Cheers.

RE: Professionalism

I'm glad I decided to refresh the screen before posting, and saw VE1BLL's post (ham call sign?); I can delete my lecture on the meaning of "straw man".  It was a vague rhetorical reference, slightly misapplied in this case, and I apologize for the unintended interpretation that it was a description of the person making the argument.  (I just committed one of my main gripes about specification writing:  "I knew what I meant--why didn't you know what I meant?")

I think VE1BLL's specifics (such as "consciously keeping your confidence level somewhere just below your competence level") are excellent.  The generic of "make sure you actually do competent engineering" and the implication that none of us think of such things is what I took issue with.

Regarding choice of clothing, obviously your mileage will vary.  From workplace to workplace, and situation to situation.  Within any environment there will still be a range, and some people will be on one end and some on the other.  I'm not the only T-shirt and sandal wearer here, but I admit we are at the tail end of acceptability (and I still get a hell of a lot more respect than the last several (better-dressed) guys to hold my job).  On the other hand, jeans and sneakers are pretty standard in this office (even my boss wears jeans and sneakers unless he has a meeting to go to), and someone wearing a necktie in my position would be looked at very strangely indeed.  Someplace else I might be wearing a jacket to work every day to do the same kind of job.  It really does depend not just on individual personality but on circumstance.

Okay, I'm bored today but not *that* bored, so I think I'll shut up for a while now.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

I use to work in an architectural design firm, mostly residential, about 35% commercial work.  We were located in a "mini mall" right on the beach in Cocoa Beach, Fl.  Standard dress was t-shirt, shorts (bathing suit actually) and flip-flops.  If the waves were good, we'd take a 2-hour lunch with the boss and our surf boards.  If we had a meeting scheduled with a client, we'd upgrade to polo-shirts and jeans (still wearing the sandals), which we all kept hanging in a small locker.

So environment plays a huge role when trying to define "professionalism".

Has this discussion strayed from professionalism to competence?

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Professionalism

"Has this discussion strayed from professionalism to competence?"

We're brawling over whether one is part of the other or another thing entirely.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

HgTX,
Gosh, you bait easily...

RE: Professionalism

Yup.  And since we've done this dance before, you must like to bait.

Swing your partner, swing your corner, do si do and away we go!

Hg

RE: Professionalism

I love it when a thread dies...

RE: Professionalism

Some threads die from being pecked to death by chickens.
An unprofessional way to die!

RE: Professionalism

(OP)
Don't die yet. I'm still listening. I think VE1BLL has a very valid point and being carefull and paying attention to details are certainly in my vocabulary of being professional. On my performace review at the old job, paying attention to detail and being pro-active were my weaknesses that my old supervisor point ou. I realized that and I'm determined to improve it. I know a guy who is very competance in  the design, problem solving, and other technical questions, but his conduct and attitude were not proffesional. I think competance is one many aspect of being professional.

APH

RE: Professionalism

Professional attitude... don't just cite problems, but also suggest solutions.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Professionalism

I think that a professional attitude is that you must be responsible for your actions.  If you know that you are responsible for the way you look, design, fill out forms, when you make a mistake and fest up so that the whole project does not go into the tank.  I think that is the ultimate character of being a professional, being able to admit that you have made a mistake and not try to blame somebody else.  I’ve saw some people who will not admit that they are wrong or made the mistake and start finger pointing.  It just makes them look like babies.  Hey I admit, I’m no supper engineer, I had some SNAFU with my calculator, switching units from SI to English and vise versa, bad info from the internet…etc.  I admitted that I made the mistake and did some show stoppers until I figured out how to fix it.  It shows that you have some integrity in your work, that you can take the kudos with the lumps.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Professionalism

I'd like to give a subtle example of overconfidence and the predictable result. (For narrative purposes, this is the simplified version.)

I was reviewing a document with the definition of a binary word, but the various bit patterns were listed in essentially random order (not following any logical sequence - no reason for it). The author of the document had obviously assumed that they were sufficiently gifted (competent) that they wouldn't make any errors and therefore had no need to be more careful.

I was suspicious, and so I cut-and-paste the entire list into MS-Excel and then sorted it into simple binary order (for review purposes). It immediately became obvious that there were errors, duplications, and omissions - just as I suspected there would be.

The above is just an example of how assuming that you're human and capable of making mistakes, can lead to a more careful approach that can eliminate such errors at the outset.

As related to this thread, I'd rather deal with someone that 'wears sandals' and instinctively lists the bit patterns in a logical order, than deal with someone 'with nice shoes' that doesn't understand that such an approach increases the risk of errors.

Thankfully, this more careful approach can be learned.

Unfortunately, it is often learned the hard way.

RE: Professionalism

My favorite example of admitting errors is the classic case of LeMessurier and the CitiCorp tower.  For them as haven't heard the story yet, look here:

http://www.bcee.concordia.ca/programs/BLDG481/letm... (looks like a reprint of the New Yorker article though NY isn't mentioned)

and here:

http://onlineethics.org/moral/lemessurier/

I've heard it debated whether he wasted potentially precious days pondering what to do, and whether the "spin" put on the repairs in the interest of not causing panic could be considered lying, but all in all here's a case of a guy blowing the whistle on himself and coming out smelling of roses.  Hell, after he came to talk to my school, I wanted to work for the him (he seems like my kind of smartass bastard, and I really do mean that in a good way).

That's a case of combining both the competence and the presentation aspects of professionalism--the competence to understand the problem and fix it, and the savvy to handle it in such a way as to create nothing but positive impressions all the way.

He was probably wearing a tie.

RE: Professionalism

APH asked for ways he can be prefessional in all aspects.

Sorry folks, I don't give a rip how good an engineer you are....wearing sandals to work is unprofessional...period.

The way you dress indiciates the way you percieve yourself; and if you want to be seen as professional, I suggest you act and look like it.

RE: Professionalism

My philosophy of dressing is dress that same as your boss.  If he dresses in a white shirt with tie and dress pants, you dress the same manner.  If your boss dresses in polo shirt and khakis, you dress the same manner.  My first boss wore the white shirt, tie, and dress pants.  I dressed the same way for two years with suit jacket.  With the next boss, he wore a polo shirt and khakis, and yes I did the same thing for the next three years.  Now my boss dress in polo shirt with either jeans or khakis, you can guess what I’m wearing now.  But from all of this facade the phrase “you can not judge a book by its cover” comes to mind.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Professionalism

You may have to tune your algorithm if a future boss happens to be a lady and you don't like wearing skirts.



RE: Professionalism

Heh.  Actually that ties into another thread from about a month ago, about what constitutes professional women's wear in various contexts.  "Dress like the boss" doesn't help in the faily common situation of female employee and male boss--unless the boss is wearing something unisex like T-shirts and jeans...That's it!  It's not dressing down, it's striking a blow for equality!

Speaking of women's wear, sandals in the office seem to be much more acceptable if they're little strappy numbers with a medium heel, pantyhose (possibly optional), and a dress (and a socially acceptable chromosome set to match).  Somehow toes aren't so controversial when there's a whole lot more flesh on view to accompany them.  Never seemed logical to me.

Generally, though, dressing like the boss, or just slightly down from the boss (we have a pretty clear tie/no tie dividing line here, drawn just above first-level managers), is pretty good guidance.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

A lot of companies will not allow any kind of open-toe shoes.

RE: Professionalism

Be positive not negative

Listen to others otherwise they won't listen to you

Think before you put your foot in it

Try to be logical and considerate

Be approachable. If you are too stern, people will be afraid to talk to you. That leads to frustration.

Learn to communicate clearly and explain exactly what you want and expect.

Try not to ask others to do what you can't (sometimes though thats the reason why you employ them)

give praise when its due...dont over do it as insincerity is not a good thing

Don't reprimand anybody in public.

Don't call people, thats not very professional.(decline to comment..that will win more respect)

Don't be afraid to give your opinion but make sure that your argumant is well thought through first.

Learn to argue and negotiate properly...there is a great skill to this.

If you are really keen, get a few books out on management and sales skills. They can be 90% Bull s$*t but the 10% is really worth it.

And don't forget, your boss won't live forever.



Friar Tuck of Sherwood

RE: Professionalism

Quote (friartuck):

Don't reprimand anybody in public.

I can't agree more on this point too.  I used to have a manager that would always yell at people right in front of others, and would also argue with his superiors in front of everyone.  Not professional at all.

A few years ago I had to travel to NY to visit a packaging vendor.  I could not believe how he treated his shop workers.  He would yell at the top of his voice, degrading his men, calling them every name and racial slurr in the book.  Then he would instruct them to go stand in the corner to get out of the way until they got "straight in the head".  After seeing this scene more than 5 times in only a single week, we decided we didn't what to do business with the company.

"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Professionalism

Lots of good responses, though I would disagree on a few posts or at least a few items in a post. As human beings, all of us are always bound to be emotional. A true professional would be one who would take decisions independently of all emotions. Many good engineers tend to be very child like in their reactions to external factors, but as long as they learn to let their emotions not affect their reactions, I would gage them to be professionals in that aspect. Good communication skills, good motivational and leadership skills, good interpersonal skills are all essential for a good professional. To add to Friartucks post, don't demand respect, rather try and command respect. You can only command respect by meeting/doing the things spelt out in most posts above

Thanks and regards
Sayee Prasad R CEng MWeldI MIOMMM


If it moves, train it...if it doesn't move, calibrate it...if it isn't written down, it never happened!

RE: Professionalism

Never ever be late for an appointment or deadline.

RE: Professionalism

MadMango--sadly, that guy could have been putting on a show for your benefit.  Some people think that coming down hard on people under them makes them look impressive.  I had a boss like that for a little while (he would jump to conclusions when we hadn't even done anything wrong, just for the opportunity to show his superiors he was "on it").  Now I see hints of it at one of our suppliers--the plant manager makes quite the show of taking people to task whenever I come around.  Not as extreme as your case, and I get the impression that everyone, even the beratees, knows it's an act, but I don't like it.  (Mostly I don't like it because the last thing I want is an unrealistic picture painted for me.)

Another version of that is not so much berating subordinates, but tearing down everyone else.  A manager in another section where I work is known for "dissing" everyone except the people who report to him.  As a result people avoid seeking out his input even when they really should consult with him, and although I'm sure he thinks that tearing down everyone else makes his group look better by comparison, the truth is that even his boss knows it's a problem.

Hg

RE: Professionalism

<i>Never ever be late for an appointment or deadline.</i>

Some regard being on-time as an ethical issue.  This is among ethical points for contemplation.  Things happen beyond your control, especially in large city traffic.  Other things that you can control.  In any event, sometime you will be late.  With cell phones, etc. you should let others know if practical.  Driving like a fool and putting lives in danger is not professional and not ethical.

John

RE: Professionalism

A true professional will plan his work in advance to meet all unexpected events and yet meet the schedules. To be on time when everything goes smooth is not as big as achievement, as is the finish on time with hiccups, traffic-jams and things beyond control. True, that some events will be reasonably beyond a human's control, but these should, in practice, be recorded well so that you have something to show when you miss the deadline. Start early if you have doubts about traffic in a city life- this is firmly in your control.

Observing timings is as important as your attire, even more than attire, in my personal opinion. I do not really care whether it is part of ethics or professionalism though.

Regards.

RE: Professionalism

(OP)
Deadline sometimes can be vague. Depend on who you ask. In my experience, the manager set up a date line based on "let's shoot for this date without looking at proper resources type of decission". If I set my own deadline, 90 % of the time I can be ontime, but that's out of the question.

APH

RE: Professionalism

Maybe a more realistic approach is figure out as far in advance whether or not you can make a deadline, and make your case as early as possible for an extension if you need one.  If you say two months before the deadline that you can't make it, that can't be seen as poor planning on your part.  Not to say that you'll get the extension, but your butt will be somewhat more covered that it would have been had you raced uncomplainingly toward a deadline you knew all along you couldn't meet, and then on the Day Of it turns out that, surprise surprise, you couldn't do it.

Here's a no-win situation:  
If you don't work overtime, you're not giving the 110% you should be giving.  But if you do work overtime, that's a symptom of poor time management.  Thoughts?

Hg

RE: Professionalism

Old joke about deadlines/scheduling:

A Program Manager is someone who thinks that, given nine women, he can make a baby in one month.

RE: Professionalism

I have seen a variaty of engineering types. And professionalism is somewhat subjective. There are those that inspire to management and play the part, well dressed, and with a firm upper nose. And those that really could give a S?+& less about such issues, and are somewhat bizzare and struggle many hours working the techological issues. Some dress strange,and have very disturbing personel habits,(and their desks, yeeeeeek!) yet when the bullet hits the bone, they practically sell their sole to provide an optimum trade off of conflicting requirements to get a system to function at various levels of maturity, that works to some degree, irrelevent of the expectations of the sales-marketing "TEAM".

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