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Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-
22

Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)

I graduated with a Mechanical Engineering Degree and obtained a PE.  

If someone knows the answer to this question please tell me:

Why does it seem that everyone is making the same amount of money whether one is in engineering or in some other profession?

Realize I love my profession, and I love the science behind what I do, and I watch Discovery and NOVA like most people watch a football game.  But Engineering was a very hard degree to earn - my friends in other majors did not have to do half of what I did to earn their degree.

I help high school students from time to time and I am asked would you recommend engineering as a degree choice.

My answer: Only as a degree; it will provide the foundation for any other secondary education you can dream of (medicine or law).  I can't bring myself to say - go engineering you will never regret it.  

I find it discouraging that friends selling cell phones are making way more money than me and don't go to bed at night wondering whether their new design is going to kill or injure someone.

Plus - I was sweating out exams in college weeks in advance while everyone else was partying up to the day before.

Am I the only one with this observation?

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I don't know where you got the idea that compensation has anything at all to do either with effort to gain the degree or with the job's value to society.  It's a lovely thought, but awfully innocent.  (Talk to any schoolteachers lately?)

Going into engineering just for the money is dumb.  Engineering's a crappy job for the mercenary.  Going into engineering because it's fun, that has merit.

I was already 30 years old and working at my little government job when I got a phone call from the family about how the neighbor's kid at 21 had graduated in finance and was getting 6-figure job offers.  My answer to them:  what the hell is your point?  What does what some kid making over in finance have anything to do with what I'm making over here in engineering?  The salary difference is the price I pay for the privilege of doing what I want to do for a living instead of some other more lucrative field that I'd hate.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

It the same old thing really and I do see both your points. Engineering is not an easy subject to be good at or stay on top of, and in relative terms other industries appear to get more for less.  But there again I too would rather do something I like.  

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
Hopefully my point isn't completely self-centered.

I love the notion that anyone can use their creative talents to become sucessful - blue blood or otherwise.  We all have our examples of rags to riches of hard working people pulling off the extraordinary.

I just note that the "order of pain" for various professions doesn't follow a "projected compensation curve".  I hear the same things from my doctor friends who say they would do it differently as well.  

So, maybe I am in a mid-life crisis. College for kids, taxes eating me up, and other issues come to mind - things I didn't think about in my young, single days.  My income doesn't go to fun hobbies - but I am debt free.

My problem is that the value of what we do is somehow not as important to society or industry as some other "easier asspects."  Like HgTX pointed out about the finance kid making 6 figures - why isn't engineering in that same class/value?  What makes engineering a good career instead of a coveted profession?  Why does the new engineer (I was one) make 55K to 65K out of school - but the national averages for 10 years experience put you at 75K?

I don't need self assurance  - I love my job and I will rise or fall on my own accord.  But it puzzles me to no end why engineering doesn't command a premium price.

I guess nobody cares what an eigen value is?

jackboot


RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Here is the key question:

"Why does it seem that everyone is making the same amount of money whether one is in engineering or in some other profession?"

Have you actually investigated the numbers? Maybe it only seems that way. Maybe it isn't really that way. How much money does a cell phone salesman make? What is his upside potential over his career? Have you considered that maybe that job really stinks and so they have to pay more to get people to do it?

Just some food for thought. But keep in mind that often all is not as it appears....

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Or else engineers just aren't as good as marketing and financial types at convincing the world that they're god's gift and OF COURSE should be paid $$$$.

I still maintain that it is nothing more than a pleasant fantasy that compensation has anything to do with a job's worth. Look at teaching. Pain-in-the-ass job if ever I've seen one, horrible bureaucracies to deal with day in and day out, eevul teenagers by the thousand (you could not possibly pay me to do that job), vitally important to society, and even the teachers with higher degrees don't get paid jack, even if you factor in the vacations.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

jackboot,

you keep saying that you love your job and you are making a decent enough salary...  what else do you need?  I would rather love my job and be paid less then hate my job and have a bigger salary.  My very first job was when I was 14.  I had a choice: do minimum wage jobs, or go to a clothing factory and cut threads off freshly sewed shirts (!) for an extra $2 per hour.  I chose the clothing factory...  My work hours were 5am to 4pm, with a 15 minute break for breakfast, 30 minute break for lunch (where ~ 40 "thread cutters" had to heat their lunch in 2 microwaves!) and 10 minute coffee break in the early afternoon.  Those were the only times where we were allowed to use the bathrooms.  When we were cutting threads, we had to do it standing because we were more efficient, and we had to do at least 2 shirts per minute in order to make the quota!!!   HELL ON EARTH!!!  I stayed there for 2 weeks, after what I went on to deliver newspapers for a minimum wage.  You know what??  I couldn't care less what anybody else does and how much they make, but if I am happy with my job, and the pay is good enough, that is enough for me!  Those selling cell phones are making more then you?  So what...  How many cell phones do they have to sell to make more then you?  What are their work hours?  What benefits do they have?  A free cell phone?  I have a friend selling phones...  He's in there for the $, he hates everything else.  Don't wish for what you don't have, be grateful and value what you do have.


Life is beautiful!!!

Coka

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Well of course the simple answer to all of this is that life is not fair, and was never advertised as being fair. I could ask the same question a bit differently:

Why is it that engineering managers make so much more than top notch technical people? Why do companies value these guys when they long ago forgot most of the engineering they know? What real value do they bring to the orgainization? An ability to give good power point? That is worth what?

Managers do well, because that is the way it has always been....

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Salary hasn't anything to do with how clever you are or how good you are at your job. Your job can be easy or very difficult, but as you say, we seem to get the same money.
Why?

I have had six jobs and now work for myself. Has my salary improved...no not really. Only the amount of satisfaction (or sometimes disatisfaction)

Doctors are respected, so are dentists and even plumbers (nothing against that by the way) but engineers?????

At a party, I explained to someone about hospital services and steam ..fairly technical and complicated. The response was, can you fix my dripping tap then please.

The public at large have no idea what we do. We are the silent team of people who keep the building warm in winter, cool in summer, build the skyscrapers, filter the water, make the ice on the rinks, design the fancy fountains in the town centres, keep them safe from fire, alert them when burgled, provide telecommunications, etc etc.

But we still get the same pay as a mobile phone salesman.

I suppose it boils down to how much money you can make for the company.

I had a spell as a salesman. It was easy money and between boredom I enjoyed it.

I suppose the answer is, If you dont like it, change jobs. There's certainly less stress in other jobs, and being an engineer gives you the ability to tackle lots of other work.

Friar Tuck of Sherwood

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Tradesmen salary pretty much max out at $30/hour were I'm from.  Engineers with 2-4 years experience make that much.  Engineering salaries go up.  Tradesmen are maxed out.  I'm not sure what you are talking about?????

I know engineers that make 6 figures and have great benefits.  Find me a cell phone salesmen that works 40 hours a week and makes 6 figures and has great benefits.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

You have to blame company accountant's & buyers.....

Running the price down on engineering products, makes the quality of the product poor. Therefore the respect of poor quality work is given its due respect.

We are a society led by accountant's, so the pound in engineering terms is not a weight measure as we see it, it's the accountant's weight in the boardroom.

Life is like a box of chocolate's...........

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I would not change Engineering as a career choice for myself; however, my background is not typical.  I worked as a mechanic and welder for 20 years prior to going back to school to get a B.S. degree in engineering.  Now I am a licensed engineer with some practical hands on experience.   I would recommend a person pursue a career in a field that interests them.  

Maximizing potential income is not a good reason for entering into any career.  You can earn a good living working in most fields.  Life is too short to worry about how much money others earn.  When it comes down to it, most high paid engineers rarely talk about their income because a firm cannot pay that salary to all their engineers.  A union worker has no problem bragging about their income because they all earn the same hourly wage.    

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

It's the Black Marble.. Cath 22 or whatever else you want to call it... and I'm sure there are teachers and nurses who feel the same... why did i pick a career with no rewards?
Better make that "financial rewards" because there has to be some peace of mind from doing what you like.
Sure, I'd love more money and I think it is sad the way engineers are treated in many countries. But, would I be happier earning more money in another career? I doubt it.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
I agree with what is being stated.

But looking through history - say in the 1800's around the start of the industrial revolution - engineers were held in a much higher regard.  Doctors, Lawyers, and Engineers were the first folks that a father brought home to introduce to their daughters.  Somehow I feel we have dropped off the short list as a profession.

I am not griping about the dollar - sure I'll take more - anyone would.  The puzzlement comes from the fact that I regard what we do so important and necessary to absolutely everything in our society.  But HgTx hits the hardest in that my/our opinion doesn't have anything to do with how we are paid.  If we did I guess we would all be driving a 500 series Merc.

Not to beat a dead horse - but I had some seriously fun jobs - engineering jobs that involved underwater work.  I didn't get paid snot - but once I had a family, my fun at the expense of my family's standard of living had to be considered.  There isn't anyone here that would take a dream job that would jeopordize his childrens' well being.  So happiness has many forms - I could be happy as a clam but my children would be on government assistance.  Get a good feeling knowing I am towing the line for some "others" and not just for myself.

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Engineers at the beginning of the industrial revolution were like the high-techies of the last decade.

Actually, the high-techies of the last decade, although filling a similar role to the engineers of yesteryear, did even better, because they could really write their own ticket and command the super-big bucks.

So, by comparison, I guess you could say that engineers have always been undervalued...How's that for a feel-good answer?

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
HgTX - That's pretty good.

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

3

I would probably do it all over again and become an engineer. I have examined other professions and they don't have much appeal to me. Yes, some do pay more than engineering but take a look at the type of work, the hours and the work environments.

Engineers will never be satisfied with the working world. Engineers are people of intelligence and logic who want to accomplish great things. Most people that I meet seem to be interested in only 3 things:

a) How much money do you make?
b) How many beers can you drink?
c) How many sex partners do you have?

For most people, accomplishing anything beyond these 3 things is an afterthought. For anyone contemplating becoming an engineer, I have the following advice:

Success is 4 parts:

a) 25% what you look like
b) 25% how good you talk (how well you speak)
c) 25% who you know
d) 25% what you know

Engineers generally focus on d, whereas the most successful people need all of them.

As far as making money, I have a friend who is an ME. He makes $100k/year+, is actually doing design rather than managing, doesn't have to PE stamp drawings (no liability). I wish all of us were in his shoes.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Would I do it again? - You bet!  While engineering may not provide the financial rewards that other fields do, the job you have is what you make of it. (How many engineers do I know that got MBAs to go into management and now hate their lives but love the money) I worked for small companies for a number of years with marginal pay because I enjoyed the challenges of the work.  I also loved being able to walk down a street and look at the buildings I have worked on, knowing that many of them will outlast me.  But yes, money can be a factor - I looked at my employers and asked why am I slaving for them when I can do the same thing. That was when I opened my own company using contacts and ablilities I had gained working for others.  I now work a 40 hr work week, adjusting my schedule to suit personal needs, and basically make what I want based upon the effort I am willing to put into the effort.  But much of that is the same in any business-the boss makes the money.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

3
Jackboot;
You have left out one piece of vital information regarding your experience as an engineer. Sounds to me if you have just got your PE, you could be in your late 20's or early 30's.

I have been an engineer for 23 years and have enjoyed every minute of it. I too started out making the same money as a friend of mine who is a darn good tradesman. After about 7 years, I surpassed his income and haven't looked back. To answer your original post - I would absolutely become an engineer, even the same profession (metallurgist).

I truly believe that if you have a passion for your profession, you will be recognized and salary will be commensurate with your experience. As far as my job, I work about 50 hours per week, am basically home in the evenings, have watched both my daughters grow up including attending most, if not all, school events. I make a very comfortable salary that provides a roof over my head, food on the table and a little extra at the end of the day for retirement.

People that I know who make more than I do (like doctors and lawyers, owners of businesses, VP’s or CEO’s of corporations) have sacrifices regarding family life versus work. There are no free lunches in life, so if you want to chase the almighty buck, go for it. I have low stress in my life and enjoy each day.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

At 40 years old, I now realize I will retire at 65 and probably live at or just above the poverty line - if I keep going at my current job and live in this same city.  The only way I will fix this is to move into management and away from engineering.

My younger sister went into nursing and on graduating, got a $40,000 signing bonus, makes more money than I do, gets a year off whenever she decides she wants to have a new baby....

what the hell.....

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

6
ChickenSoup:  That's been my observation too.  The data I have shows quite conclusively that the employment outcomes of any student associated with medicine in any way are consistently nearly 100%.  Engineers in Ontario, Canada were, according to the most recent data I have seen, about 25% more likely to be unemployed two years after graduation than the graduate of the average university program.

The reasons are many:  over-supply (a massive problem in Ontario due primarily to a 12-fold increase in immigration over a decade), lack of public and corporate understanding of what we do and why it's valuable, a lack of consistent, understandable licensure/regulation in our profession (relative to the medical profession- every heard of a non-professional or unlicensed doctor?!), globalization/outsourcing etc. etc. And most poignantly in my view, there's been an utter lack of effective advocacy on behalf of the interests of engineers.  The diversity of our profession in terms of industries served, interests and areas of specialization etc. makes it tough for us to get together and lobby effectively.

While engineers continue to be happy to put up with marginal pay and employment opportunities just to have the priviledge to do engineering, not much will change.  Ours is a noble calling but we have to learn to stand up for ourselves and demand our fair share of the wealth we create- or get out and find something else to do for a living and encourage others to do the same.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

There's a great book titled, "The Millionaire Next Door".  It's about what people think of when they hear Millionaire, and what actually is a Millionaire.  

It's been a while since I read it, but one part stands out.  They say that, yes, Doctors, Lawyers, Salespersons, etc get paid well, but the majority feel they have to live a lifestyle to match their income, and thus, really have nothing to show for it.

So, yes, they get paid more.  But they are paying more for the house, the Beamer, the second house, the spouse, etc...  They show off their money, they don't save it.  How many doctors you know drive a '94 Honda Civic?  Is higher pay really what will make them happy?

Oh, on wealth and happiness:  A study is done every year on wealth and happiness among several countries.  One of the happiest (I think tied for first or second) was Colombia, which was one of the poorest in the study.  The States was ranked, I think, 17th in happiness, and is one of, if not the, wealthiest.  

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I'd heard it as for most countries wealth does correlate with happiness but lo and behold poor Ireland was still very happy (moral being the indomitable Celtic spirit or something).  So I just went and googled around a little.  I found several studies indicated that apparently money does buy happiness.  And yes, Ireland is pretty happy, but these days they ain't poor (though they were in the 70s when apparently there was a rash of happiness studies; maybe the report I'm thinking of comes from then).

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I would challenge moltenmetal to give one example of an employed engineer in Canada or Ontario that will "live at or just above the poverty line".  (Yes I know you have 1 survey that shows a 4% unemployment rate.)

Engineers in Canada are envied by most engineers in other countries because we have it so good!

I also challenge - "Find me a cell phone salesmen that works 40 hours a week and makes 6 figures and has great benefits."

I know engineers in Canada that make this.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

QCE,

6 figures in Canada is what?  Like low 5 digits US$?

(It's an old joke)

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

moltenmetal: that is correct that engineers need better organization as a group.  Unfortunatly, here in Winnipeg we have APEGM, which acts more like big brother constantly peering over your shoulder, rather than actually contributing to the growth of a positive image to the typical manufacturing company.  It is unfortunate that APEGM's mandate is to monitor engineers, not promote engineering.  Engineering is dying in the eyes of manufacturers.  I work with many local companies, dealing with engineers that are not members of APEGM.

APEGM seems more concerned with making sure engineers take 5 hours in courses and APEGM forces volunteering in events not affiliated with engineering - and 'don't forget to stamp all your work' attitude.  IF you don't volunteer, you don't get to be a P.E.

APEGM states volunteering will make you a better engineer.  Can anyone point me to some research that proves this statement?  Anyone can say the moon is made of swiss cheese too.  I fail to see how APEGM can make a statement like this with no proof to back it.

I get offers from the USA for the same work, add 50% to my current salary and that is in USD.  I will be there in 5 years.

Canadian engineers do not have it good.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
Could someone tell me what the result would be if:

The industrial exemption for PE registration was removed...

Would this be beneficial for the profession - required registration?

Likewise - every engineer would have a internship (4 years) and would become a full bird engineering once the PE test was completed.

We would therefore be like doctors and lawyers in that you can't practice without a license.

Any thoughts - good or bad?

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

There are unethical companies that look for unemployed engineers, that pay crap, looking for a cheap deal, a cheap stamper.

Also, there are unemployed engineers that will take these jobs, as it is a step better than being unemployed.

The bottom line lies with the % of unemployed engineers that drives the salaries overall.

I think the universities need to cap how many engineers they crank through the system, and no imports should be allowed.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I have been a member of several Mech Eng committees for nearly 30 years including my time at University.  The problem is obvious.  Most Engineers want to do their own thing and not take part in the wider profession whether as students or professionals. Organising social events for mech eng students was bad enough.  Organising meetings for professionals to listen to a lecture, do a bit of socialising and networking is a non starter when only get 4 turn up.  Nothing will change until Engineers speak with one voice.  Its a waste of time moaning that we're run by money men and not listened to by politicians.
Jackboot above has the right idea but he needs active support from every other engineer.  Could you imagine a surgeon let the politians exempt his qualification ?

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

4pipes say:  "Could you imagine a surgeon let the politicians exempt his qualification?"

How did the industry exemption come into place?

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
Good question HgTX - I don't know.

My thoughts:

The industrial argument is:  We aren't selling services to the "general public" and we aren't competing for government contracts.  

However, it would seem that we have 90% plus of engineers who are doing work in the exempt status.  I don't know this but I wouldn't be surprised if it is higher.

It doesn't take a genius to see that everything we do filters down to the public - cars, machinery, refinery equipment (if it cuts loose).  Naturally, there are codes to be met - but even the codes will default to Professional Engineers at some point (ASME for High pressure vessels).

Maybe I am just dreaming  - but the PE stamp would be a good start to insure that the boom designer, for the crane, that lifts the structure for the public works project, be encompassed into the "profession".

I don't think we as professionals will be anything but fun working "techies" if we don't have this mandate.

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I'd be happy to see some sort of compulsory professional registration for engineers who are currently exempt, but I really don't think the PE process as it stands would be much help.

1) we don't work to codes
2) we don't design to codes
3) the regulations that govern our products change at a dizzying rate and vary widely between territories and industries
4) a prototype based design process is inherently more difficult to standardise.


What I'd like to see

A) Non accredited degree courses not allowed to use the term engineering in their title

B) All degreed engineers to complete at least 1 year of industry experience before graduating

C) All professional engineers to satisfactorily complete 4 years of directed training/ industry experience before they get their stamp

D) No academics, politicians or industry representation in engineering institutions

E) Engineers decide how many students are taken on each year.

F) No PE exams, if the degree course is good enough then what point is another exam? If the course is not good enough then it should not be accredited.

G) An alternative method of getting to licensed status that does not involve a full time degree.

H) A grandfather clause for people like me!






Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

A) Non accredited degree courses not allowed to use the term engineering in their title

Sounds good.

B) All degreed engineers to complete at least 1 year of industry experience before graduating

Before graduating?  A typical co-op program is about 9 months--a semester plus a summer.  Are you talking about that kind of full-time industry involvement?

Cuz I'm wondering otherwise--what's the difference between requiring that year (and more) *after* graduation vs. *before* graduation?

C) All professional engineers to satisfactorily complete 4 years of directed training/ industry experience before they get their stamp

It's like that in a lot of states already.  California would have to change, and I suppose you'd eliminate the year's deduction that a 2-year MS program currently allows in some states?

D) No academics, politicians or industry representation in engineering institutions

What exactly constitutes an engineering institution?  What is their authority?  I ignore ASCE for the most part and deal with organizations more specific to my field, and academics are vital for us to understand what the real physics are behind the printed words.  What exactly constitutes "industry representation"?  Do you mean non-PE industry reps?  Or anyone who works for industry, in which case once you've eliminated the academics you're left with no one but government employees and consultants?  Yes, there are places where academics, or politicians, or industry reps do not belong, but a broad demonization smacks of knee-jerk reaction.  I can see making them all have PEs, but I don't know about eliminating some of those PEs because of the paths they have chosen to follow.

E) Engineers decide how many students are taken on each year.

I don't know of ANY field that has a nationwide (or worldwide) control on how many students are granted degrees.  Each school makes their own decisions.  If you want engineers to advise individual schools, that's fine, but a national coordination among all the engineering schools and some mystical panel of all-knowing engineers (none of whom are tainted by academia, industry, or government) is nothing more than utter fantasy.

F) No PE exams, if the degree course is good enough then what point is another exam? If the course is not good enough then it should not be accredited.

Do you mean PE or FE (EIT)?  Or both?

Two years ago I would have argued against your position on the PE exam, which *can* have more involved questions than what an undergrad might do, but then I took it, and considering that some exams are easier than others and we can just pick what we want, I have to agree it's not of great value.  Better to go back to focusing on the experience.  (Not that that isn't a broken system as well and in some cases an exercise in creative writing.)

[i]G) An alternative method of getting to licensed status that does not involve a full time degree.[i/]

Many states have this as well.  But if you incorporate your grandfather clause (H), why do you need that?  "I've been doing this for 30 years and it ain't broke yet" is not always reliable.  Sometimes they've been doing it wrong for 30 years--depending on the function, that may or may not break anything.  Why go to all the trouble of enhancing undergraduate requirements and then say that the accredited degree isn't actually necessary?

H) A grandfather clause for people like me!

Sure.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

QCE:

I have met LOTS of engineers in Canada living at or near the poverty level. They're virtually all foreign-trained.  Most of them came here in the past five years or so, expecting Canada to be a ShangriLa on the basis of what some ignoramus from Citizenship and Immigration Canada told them about the perceived "shortage of engineers".  They then arrived in Canada, predominantly the greater Toronto area, to find they were in the same old trap many recent grads find themselves in also:  no experience, no job- no job, no experience...  I know many who have opted for McJobs of one sort or another because they need to feed their families and they're fed up looking for work.  

These people are not being excluded from jobs on the basis of race or background, but rather are being out-competed in an oversupplied marketplace.  They're losing jobs to people who represent a lower hire risk by virtue of having experience which demonstrates they have been successful in the local work environment.

In 1990, when engineering immigration rates to Canada were 1/12 what they are now, settlement problems for immigrant engineers existed too- but were far more prevalent than they are now because of the law of supply and demand.

But just like your engineer earning six figures (I know more than a few of them too), these are ANECDOTES.  It's idiotic to generalize your situation, or the situations of a few individuals you know,  to that of the general engineering population.

That's where the overall, general statistics come in to play.  These objective stats DEMONSTRATE the oversupply situation in Canada in plain terms.  The three-fold increase in engineering supply over a decade is a fact, not a supposition.

Engineers are versatile, intelligent, well-educated and motivated people by and large.  That's why you find that so many of them are UNDEREMPLOYED rather than completely unemployed.  That's why the stats for unemployment for engineers are consistently lower than that for the general population- just like the unemployment stats for the average university-educated person are generally far lower than those for the general population.   Educated people, especially engineers who have a broad background in technology, science and mathematics, can always find something to do to put bread on the table.  But THAT is not the issue.  The issue is one of comparative value of the degree in the only terms that matter:  the ability to secure interesting, fulfilling work at a level of compensation which at least in some measure respects the level of personal and professional responsibility and liability imposed by that job.  And on that measure, engineering was once GREAT and is now middling to poor relative to other senior professions and getting WORSE daily.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Moltenmetal:

Your determination regarding this topic is an inspiration to those of us who think that something needs to be done.  I hope that you do not become discouraged by a apparent lack of results.  There are many people who share your opinion.

Dave

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-


To Jackboot:

Eliminating the industrial exemption will not make engineers just like doctors and lawyers. I currently work in an A/E firm where there supposedly is no license exemption. Some of our engineers are licensed and some are not. This is quite a bit different than medicine where all doctors are licensed, whether they are employees or in private practice. What you spoke about earlier isn't elimination of the industrial exemption but is universal licensing. This goes far beyond the bounds of eliminating the industrial exemption. Good luck trying to get industry and even the consulting world on board with this.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

The situation with a mix of licensed and unlicensed engineers, where the licensed engineers take care of the stamping and (supposedly) oversee the unlicensed engineers (technically engineer assistants, I guess) does have a parallel in medicine.

Physician Assistants, certain levels of nurses (LPNs?), and nurse-midwives can take care of a lot of common doctor duties, even to the point of writing prescriptions.  However, they definitely have different titles and the separate job function is recognized, unlike engineering where the licensed and the unlicensed claim the same title.  (In Texas it's not supposed to be legal to use the title of "engineer" without a license, but I don't know whether that's enforced at all.)

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

(OP)
HgTX- The enforcement is done for the illegal use of "engineer"- I saw the Texas hearings and they hand out a fair number of fines.  The Board has some teeth and uses them when appropriate.

EddyC - I was not implying across the board universal licensing.  But if you have an engineering department - there would need to be one Professional Engineer to oversee all work.  But again - I can't see all the ramifications that this requirement would have.

I have an uneasy feeling about the future of our profession.  The current registration, notwithstanding all its faults, provides at least a level field for experience and brain power.  The FE and PE are a good filter for "limiting" access to the profession. If our profession is swamped with people, then registration would weed out some of the dross.  Further, if this was a requirement, then the Registration Boards would be even more influential due to the increase in members (or more of a monster depending on the circumstances.)

In keeping with the spirit of engineering - we seek to improve and better everything.  Grinding through the registration process, in my opinion, would promote and elevate the status of engineering.  I don't see a downside but then I don't know everything and don't pretend too.

jackboot

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

"In Texas it's not supposed to be legal to use the title of "engineer" without a license, but I don't know whether that's enforced at all"

Dunno, what does NASA call those guys with the pocket protectors who design their toys? Houston is in Texas isn't it?

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

It's against the law in California and Washington and they do inforce it.  At least California did.  The Governator is trying to do away with all licensing boards.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

The question would be what does NASA officially call the folks who design their toys, not how they refer to them informally.  Org charts, letterhead, business cards.  Not sure if press releases referring to "a NASA engineer" count.  I do know that some of them do have PE licenses and that this is valued somewhat, as a friend of mine at NASA is considering getting licensed.  They do at least require that the "engineers" come from an accredited engineering program.

TX did just grant an exception to the licensing rule for some kinds of computer engineering, not sure exactly what.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Doesn’t NASA give their engineers the title of scientist?  You never here that it was the engineers that got the rovers onto Mars, it was the scientists.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-


HgTX brings up a good point about the medical profession, that doctors oversee a variety of subordinates who assist in performing medical procedures.

The difference is that in engineering, non-PE "engineers" are sometimes in supervisory positions over PE engineers. And I'm talking about A/E firms, not just industry. This situation makes engineering very different from medicine. Do you think that any Doctor would let a nurse supervise his/her work?

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

To my esteemed engineering colleagues;
Focus on the task at hand. People worry about how the engineering profession has either dwindled or lacks in status to other professions like doctors or lawyers. Who the heck cares about this type of glamor? I sure don't. It is a waste of precious time to think you can orchestrate a movement to require a PE license for ALL engineers or reduce the number of individuals entering our profession by some other means. Engineering has been around for hundreds of years and will continue to thrive in one form or another.

As my father once told me you work to the best of your ability to provide for yourself and your family. If you are in a profession that you truly enjoy it no longer becomes a job - you make it a life long learning career. A truly rich man is one that enjoys life and learns on a daily basis!

Engineering serves a purpose in our complex society. If you feel that you don't make enough money, then do something about it instead of complaining or bad-mouthing our profession! Change professions! If you perform your work with a passion and become skilled, I still believe one will be recognized professionally and will ultimately become more valuable to any organization.

I also am a licensed PE. I did this because I felt it is an important credential to obtain, and probably increases my employment opportunity, in the event I need to change companies. I don't ever see engineers as approaching the status of doctors or lawyers because these are completely different professions and have different liabilities. I have no complaints about salary as an experienced engineer.

To those engineers like myself that enjoy our profession and get the most out of it on a daily basis - we are indeed the lucky ones!

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Metengr - You know it!

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Of cause your right meterngr, all jobs are the same, if you really enjoy it and thats what you want then so be it. The problem is that unless you have incentives you dont encourage the diversity needed to make engineering as a whole work.  Unfortunately love of the job is not everyones driver and thats where the industry as a whole is failing.  Ok we have a few die-hards out there, I love my job and thats all that matters, and its a good job too. The national health service in the UK is totally reliant on this ethos. But when you start thinking about all the other attributes that are needed to make an industry successful I think that there is a lot to be desired.  If you're at the top of the tree then fine but not everyone can be and in general engineering is long hours, poor money, inconsistant and undervalued as a profession. But I dont want to detract to far from you point that enjoyment is worth a lot.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Yes, metengr, WE ARE the lucky ones.  The lucky ones, note- not the average.  It's crazy to extrapolate our success to engineers in general.

Again, I reiterate that I personally am very satisfied with my job and my choice of profession.  But I'm NOT satisfied with the chances of recent grads and recent immigrants to my profession in my country to obtain the same level of satisfaction with THEIR choice of career.  I also know that I would be more satisfied with my career choice if it paid something more closely approximating the value I provide to my employer and to my society in general.  If my compensation slips below the level where it starts affecting my personal dignity, I'll be doing something else for a living in a heartbeat.

Don't let your current job satisfaction blind you to the overall trends in our profession.  Too many self-satisfied people sitting on their behinds and doing nothing will ENSURE this profession's ultimate demise.  It will shrink from a profession to a commodity before you know it.  In fact, in many ways it already has.  Too many people willing to work in the consulting industry for (on average) 20% less than the average salary for a professional engineer, and to work huge amounts of uncompensated overtime to boot- that does NOTHING to enhance the lot of the average engineer.

Don't mistake my constructive criticism of the profession for malicious bad-mouthing by a dissatisfied miscreant.  If I didn't care about our profession so much, do you think I'd BOTHER with any of this?  Of course not- I'd leave and find something else to do for a living.  But the first step to dealing with any problem is acknowledging that it exists.  If you want to stand there with your hands over your ears, shouting, "Nothing to worry about, I'm fine!", then you're not helping matters either.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

moltenmetal;
I reviewed your post carefully. First off, let me say that it is very noble to worry about new engineers and others arriving to your country to work as engineers. I would agree with your statement about this, but we can't change how companies view employees - as commodities not as people! Our business society today seems to be driven by greed instead of ethics. Cut as many engineers as we can and those left standing will absorb their work. Over time, the greed side of the pendulum will swing in the other direction. We live in a very dynamic society.

Hmm.. the perception of worth. I don't have an easy answer for that one. Worth is relative, and if you think you are underpaid based on your perceived value to an organization you (we all) have choices - change jobs or make a case that you need more compensation. There are days when I feel, what the hell I just saved the company $$$. However, in the grand scheme of things, I don't have the headaches and worries that the higher ups in our company have to contend with like being passed up for a promotion and can't attend family functions- it boils down to a quality of life issue. I am involved with the technical side of the business versus the management side of the business and there is no issue with competition for jobs. You are in your position because of your technical expertise – plain and simple. You can take all of those high level VP’s, directors and CEO’s and replace any one of them in a heart beat. When a technical recommendation is required like how to choose a particular material or recommend an innovative weld repair the high-ups rely on the engineer.


I don't want to give you the impression that things are rosy for engineers that focus on the tasks at hand. Take each day, one day at a time. I am not worried the least bit about our survival as a profession. I believe the engineering profession will survive over time as it did years before us with new job prospects that will require even more comprehensive analytical skill sets.  

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

metengr:

This most recent post of yours puts your views into better perspective.  And again, please don't confuse my emphatic, passionate argument on this topic with a disrespect for your point of view.  Clearly I understand your love for engineering- I share it.  Like any good engineer, I can calculate in dollars and cents exactly what value I bring to my employer- and I demand my fair share of the value I generate through my professional activities.  Unfortunately, too much love of what we do can and does tend to bring engineers to put up with bad pay and working conditions, and that's good for NONE of us.

I'm not worried about the future of engineering as a JOB- clearly there will always be a need for that.  A need which will increase with increasing use of technology- a need which will grow at somewhat more than the rate of the general economy.

What I'm concerned about is the future of engineering as a senior self-regulated PROFESSION.  A calling which offers satisfying, engaging work experiences for its practitioners, and which provides the public with added safety and security because of the ethics and public duty-focus of its practitioners- and one which offers an exclusive scope of practice and adequate levels of compensation to its practitioners in compensation for the difficulty of their education AND for the personal liability, stress and risk brought on by the tasks they perform.

Oversupply due to unregulated immigration and increased university enrollments, globalization of both manufacturing and engineering services, the productivity improvements in engineering created by improvements in communications and computing/software technology, and the ceaseless pressure from business and non-professionial groups bent on taking away what remains of our exclusive areas of practice and while setting barriers against our attempts to expand these into areas of new technology- these are ALL factors which will tend to force the profession of engineering further down the pay and job satisfaction scale in my country.  And if people don't acknowledge that the present AND future of engineering as a profession is anything but rosy for a great many of its practitioners, we will NEVER be able to do something about it.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I am interested that you keep demonizing immigrant engineers. From memory, using your figures, you would still face an excess of new engineers without them.

If you gave me a boatload of motivated capable engineers I would regard that as an opportunity, not a threat.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I just wanted to put in my two cents. I live and work in Germany, a country nowadays well known for high cost of living and high emplyee on-cost (don't know if this is the right expression... it's the overhead generated by employees in form of medical insurance and so on). First of all, I must say that nonetheless (whereas I am a very new engineer, just two years into working) the salary is ok, even in comparison to others (excluding perhaps the financial businesses). I can not yet evaluate how this will develop, if the rise in salary will compensate the rise in responsibility, but that doesn't really matter. For one thing, I have to concur with many of you that the most important thing is that I enjoy my work very much. But the thing that has me convinced that engineering is THE way to go is the simple fact that I understand nature. When something happens outside, I have the neccessary knowledge to know WHY it happens. In my view, there is nothing more satisfying than this fact and this compensates me for ALL the work and time I had to invest into aquiring my degree.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I'm not demonizing anybody!  Get that dead straight- I have NOTHING against the immigrants themselves.  They're victims in this whole mess, and they're not to blame whatsoever.  They're just doing what we're all doing- trying to make a life for themselves and support their families.

All I'm saying is that these poor bastards are coming here by the thousands expecting, based on what they've been told pre-immigration, to earn a reasonable living practicing their profession.  Instead, they're ending up driving taxis and cursing their new nation for "keeping them out" of a job.  It's a damned shame, and it's irresponsible and unjust to let it continue without providing a reality check to these people BEFORE they choose to come.  If they choose to come anyway, in full knowledge that a taxi driving job is what likely awaits them, they're absolutely welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Once immigrants are here, we have a responsibility to treat them fairly, and everything I've seen indicates that the system in my province of Ontario is doing the very best it can.  In fact, as imperfect as it is, our licensure system is a model for the other professions to follow.  2/3 of the foreign-trained engineers who apply, get their license and three years of the required 4 year experience based on an interview without writing a single technical exam- compare that to 100% of applicants for most other professions who have to write a technical exam.  We offer them provisional licenses until they meet the 1 yr Canadian experience requirement.  But they STILL don't get licensed because they can't find a job to get the necessary 12 months of mentored Canadian experience, and that's solely due to massive over-supply.  Ten years ago, when the immigration rates were more sensible, this kind of problem was much less prevalent.  If we eliminate the 12 month Canadian experience requirement, we might as well just give a license to anyone who asks for it, since it will be basically useless for public protection.

If immigration increased at the same rate that Canadian engineering university enrollments increased, we'd probably still have a small problem with oversupply.  But it would be a SMALL problem rather than the gigantic mess we have currently.  Immigration rates have increased by a factor of 12 in a decade.  It's not the immigrants' fault- they're victims in this mess, as are the recent grads they compete with for jobs.  It's Canadian Federal immigration policy that's to blame.

As an employer I might consider a flood of foreign-trained engineers to be an opportunity- but I'm just an employee engineer like the MAJORITY of engineers out there.  All a flood of engineers to the marketplace does is push down salary and working condition expectations for everybody, newcomers and residents alike.  The local market for engineering services is saturated, so hordes of new engineers would need to drive new export industries to be of any use to the economy.  True, some of that is happening and more would be of benefit if we could harness it.  But as we all know, competition from off-shore engineering firms from cheaper locales is a growing factor that's not likely to act in the right direction to put these people to work once they're here.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Unrealistic expectations on the part of immigrants is hardly an engineering issue.  The US, and probably Canada by association, still has the international image of a land of plenty.  Our luxurious lifestyle is on television worldwide, and in places where they've never had television they're even more likely to believe fanciful tales.

I am here in the U.S. today because my stepfather wanted to come to America to pick the gold up off the streets.  He fell flat on his face; fortunately for all of us, my mother's an engineer.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Unrealistic expectations which are come by honestly because of wilfull blindness are normal.  There's nothing we can do about these except to provide the facts and let people make their own decisions.

Unrealistic expectations ENGENDERED and ENHANCED by liars and ignoramuses who propagate the myth of a general shortage of "skilled professionals" (including engineers!)and portray our profession in particular as some kind of work paradise, are another matter entirely.  These people are committing a mass fraud, resulting in significant harm in people's lives, immigrants and recent grads alike.  Some of them have been at it for years, and are doing it deliberately for direct or indirect personal gain, while others are doing it out of ignorance of the true situation and a genuine desire to help both their nation AND the immigrants and students themselves.

I know that to some of you, the previous paragraph sounds like hyperbole, but I rather suspect you haven't been, like I have been, in a meeting room with literally HUNDREDS of unemployed, hopeless recent immigrant engineers in a single city, and listened to their sad stories.  You haven't been around as 2,500 foreign-trained engineers applied for a (cancelled) program offering 50 people the chance for some work-readiness courses with job placement assistance at the end.  You haven't been approached by numerous recent graduates of fine local engineering schools who have gone six months or a year without finding engineering employment and have to take McJobs to start paying back their student loans...

We owe people the FACTS, before they choose to immigrate or enter an engineering program.  Beyond that, it's up to them to decide- we've discharged our duty by providing the information.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Which particular liars and ignoramuses (not names, just categories) are you talking about?  Not that I'm doubting, I just haven't seen it from where I stand.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

I guess I see it most days here in the UK.  Lots of promotional activity aimed at schools to encourage young people into engineering. The promote very glamous positions and salary prospects.  However reality paints a very very different picture.  The Times read just this week, graduates after 5 years service could realise 36% higher remunerations in the public sector. Engineering was the bottom of the pile.  So there is a complete mismatch between what is being sold and national figures.  I guess it must be the same in the US after all we're not that different.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Who are the liars?  

Some of them are business lobbyists and business-funded "think tanks" and NGOs of that ilk. They have lots of money, and it talks loudly and often.  The same old story, "Shortage of skilled workers!"; "Looming demographic crunch as baby-boomers retire!", "Knowledge Economy is Coming!", "Hydrogen Economy is Coming!", "Biotech Boom is Coming!"...They've been shilling the same "shortage" story for the past twenty years or more, and I've NEVER seen an actual engineering shortage that extended beyond a few narrow areas of practice for at most a year or two.

Some of them are senior partners in engineering consulting firms:  you know, consulting, that industry which pays salaries on average 20+% less than what the rest of industry pays engineers.  These people are active in the national and provincial engineering societies AND actively lobby the Federal government- and they always know which side their bread is buttered on.  Note- some senior engineering firm partners are great people in every sense and truly have the best interests of the engineering profession at heart, but some of them have been converted to "the dark side" and quite frankly have no clue what life is like for their engineering peons any more, nor do they care.  

Others are "immigration consultants", those people who profit directly from the high hopes of potential immigrants, so needless to say they paint a very pretty and very inaccurate picture...  Many of these operate in the home countries of the prospective immigrants and are hence completely beyond our national control.

Yet more are the management of universities, whose institutions profit directly through increased enrollments.  I've NEVER heard a university call for decreased enrollments in ANY program, even when the market is flooded with its previous grads.

Yet others are organizations who profit from the recent immigrants once they're here, by providing them services, re-training etc.

Who are the ignoramuses?  These are the ones who are spreading mis-information not out of malice or self-interest, but because they're uninformed.  

Principal among these:  Citizenship and Immigration Canada staff, who don't know any better and don't care to inform themselves.  The preamble to the 2002 Immigrant and Refugee Protection Act spells it out in glorious detail- they've given up even trying to match supply and demand for skills because it's too complex. Instead they award points based on "skills", which they equate with education.  So we're short machinists and bricklayers and overloaded with PhDs...Heck, we even deport people who have jobs and are totally satisfied working in the construction trades but who lack a work visa!

Politicians too- all they do is parrot what they've heard in the media and from the business lobby.  I watched politicians and business leaders one after another, glad-handing this room full of recent immigrants (80% of whom were unemployed engineers) and telling them how desperately Canada needed their services, and how much money their "unrecognized credentials" were costing our society...

Add to that the recent immigrants themselves, the victims in all of this- and the media who tell their stories.  They incorrectly assess their undeserved lot as one of "unrecognized credentials" or of the professional bodies denying them licensure by acting like a "guild", when what's really the problem is simple oversupply- they're being out-competed in an oversupplied market.  Immigrants in their position twenty or even ten years ago didn't experience nearly the difficulty in finding work that this new group does, for obvious reasons- engineering immigration rates a decade ago were less than 1/12 what they are today.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Would you do it again?

Hell No!

There are three ways of making money in engineering.

1) Start up your own business or be a contractor
2) Sell the product, don’t make it.
3) Get on the board of directors.

You can be an ordinary Doctor, Lawyer, Dentist, Vet etc and make a good living but to make a good living in engineering requires something extraordinary.

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

2
Would I do it again?

Hell yes!

I went into engineering because I loved technical things, wanted to know how they worked, wanted to be involved with the process of improvement, and I knew it would make me a decent living.  I knew going in that I would not get rich especially since I chose the technical side of the business.

At my engine school (go Sooners!) there were plenty of finance and accounting and business majors who were offered 30-50% higher starting base salaries than me.

Within reason, I think most of the time, one chooses a professional career out of interest and talent.  For example I would be miserable sticking people with a needle all day.  And no, a quarter-million-dollar salary won't make up for being miserable at work.  You may accuse me of altrusim, to which I submit the following.  I once heard someone say that we do jobs all day that we hate to enable us to do things we love in our spare time.  So I took that to heart and I did that for awhile:  I took a different type of position with a company as a staff reliability/maintenance engineer.  I was miserable.  High pay, 25% more than the job I left, over six figures, but along with that came a lot of unrealistic expecations, a jerkwad boss who had a baaaaad case of vertically-challenged-person's syndrome, an unmotivated support staff, company management who parroted the TPR/TPM gospel but who did nothing on the plant floor to support it, and a plantful of line personnel for whose behavior and output I was responsible but for which I was given neither carrot nor stick.  So I left there after 15 months and went back to my small-firm consulting job.  

Chris9 - Why did you even go to engine school in the first place?  Why not banking, finance, or insurance?  How do you define 'good living'?  $200k salary?  Four jet skis in the garage?  An H2 in the driveway?  Sure I'd like to have those things; most people would.  Am I willing to be miserable in my career to get them?  Nope.  Everything in  life is a trade-off.  Your set of trade-offs may be different than mine.  At the end of one's life he will look back on a career and decide for himself whether his time spent at the plant/office/bank/insurance company was worthwhile, given all the other variables that go into one's equation of life.

On the title issue - We have always been up against that.  Historical tradition is unfortunately against us - witness your typical boiler plant operator being called a "building engineer" and heavy equipment operators called "operating engineer".  And we all know about locomotive drivers.  And comes now Mickeysoft with their ridiculous title of "certified network engineers", whatever they are.  Ugh.  Not to disparage any of those occupations, but you get my drift.  

Thanks!
Pete

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Haha

To bad for Chris9 but I'm an unextraordinary engineer making a hell of a good living!

But I'm afraid you would not understand.

Please explain the term "good living" in your terms.  I would like to try and understand.  I have a funny feeling I won't get it.

I've given up trying to understand moltenmetal - he is a good person trying to fight for our profession, I just can't grasp his idea.

Moltenmetal - I'm afraid we just lost 2 more engineers from our ranks.  Two friends of mine that are engineers have just quit - 1 to be a full time mom and one to open a book store.  So maybe when you quote your numbers that not all engineers work in their profession and you link it to a lack of jobs.  Maybe the numbers will be skewed???????  Just because there are X amount of engineers graduating each year doesn't mean that there needs to be X amount of jobs.  Some people have other plans in life.  

QCE

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

QCE- thanks for the compliment.  I'm making a good living as an engineer too- but as I've said before, I SHOULD be- and if I'm not, I'm either an idiot or our economy is totally screwed.  I don't generalize my own specific good fortune or that of my friends or colleagues to the engineering population in general- I know better than to extrapolate with such limited data!

You're not the only engineer who doesn't get this point.  But the numbers are totally compelling:

1991:  ~6,800 CEAB-accredited Canadian engineering grads and ~ 1,300 engineering immigrants to all of Canada- and no desperate shortage of ANY kind of engineer that I'm aware of...

2001:  ~8,700 CEAB-accredited Canadian engineering grads and ~ 16,800 engineering immigrants to all of Canada

Graduating rates increased by about 30% in a decade.  Immigration increased TWELVE-FOLD ~ 1,100%!  In the same decade, the Canadian workforce overall and our GDP grew by a net ~17-20%.  Engineering supply on a yearly basis grew to THREE TIMES what it was a decade earlier!

If immigration grew at the rate that graduation did, I could see the argument that supply had kept pace with demand, or perhaps slightly exceeded it given the effects of off-shoring and improved worker productivity due to technology.  An engineering work growth rate of, say, TWICE the national average for all professions, or TWICE the growth rate of our GDP, might be believable.  But TEN TIMES the growth rate of the overall economy?  You've got to be kidding!

I'm sure you electricals learned the same thing as we chemicals did in 1st year:  input minus output equals ACCUMULATION!  We know the input (supply) rate, we can estimate the output (demand) rate within at least half an order of magnitude- so we have ACCUMULATION of engineers, big time!  

All the other data I've seen support this view.  For instance, among 600 recent immigrant engineers surveyed by the Council for Access to the Profession of Engineering, only 20% were working as engineers- and some had been searching for jobs for several years. About 50% of these people are totally unemployed- mostly because they won't stoop to take a survival job for fear of losing their profession.  Either this means Canada is a total fraud from the standpoint of multiculturalism, or there is insufficient demand for these people's skills- because I KNOW these people are looking for engineering work- I've personally met and spoken with literally hundreds of them.  The previous generation of immigrant engineers didn't suffer that fate- when quotas were used to at least approximately match supply and demand, the marketplace wasn't massively oversupplied and people FOUND WORK.   

In 1991, some CEAB grads left the profession to find other jobs, just like your friends- some by choice, some because they couldn't find work in their field that was worth doing for the pay offered.  Some of the immigrants did the same.  So what?  They did the same thing in 2001- in fact, more of them did- most of them because of frustration in trying to find suitable engineering work!  I've met lots of angry, frustrated, broke recent grads who wonder why the hell they went into engineering in the first place- and lots of desperate immigrants as I mentioned before.

If we honestly believe that engineering is "the new liberal arts education" as a stepping stone to other professions and types of work, and that most engineering students really have no intention to work as engineers, ever, then we'd better shout this from the rooftops of the universities before these poor kids sign up for four+ years of hell!  And if we feel that these immigrant engineers should be satisfied with factory work or driving taxis once they come to Canada, we'd better be dead clear with them UP FRONT- long before they choose to come here!

We're not advocating closing the borders or shutting down the engineering schools- all we want is ACCURATE, TIMELY discipline- and region-specific data so people can make informed choices.  Our country will always need SOME engineers, and will reward SOME engineers richly for their essential services.  But that's no reason to flood the marketplace- it accomplishes nothing for Canada aside from pushing down salaries and working conditions for ALL engineers here- and it creates tragedies in people's lives!

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

If it's four years of hell, they shouldn't be doing it either.

Hg

RE: Would you do it again?- Hind sight and engineering-

Moltenmetal

Do you think these people would immigrate to Canada even if they were told personnally by you that they would have a tough time finding a job as an engineer?

I'm willing to bet that they were not happily working in their former country as happily employed engineers and then someone came and told them to come to Canada the land of milk and honey.  I think you need to also examine why most of these people are coming to Canada.

I hope you are working with the APEGO people to spread the word.  If the problem can be worked out I hope it will be.

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