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$50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer
24

$50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

$50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

(OP)
This was a question asked in another thread:

<<By the way how do we differentiate ourselves from an
engineer in Bangalore making $5.00 per hour? >>

It is an interesting question with some obvious answers and some maybe not so obvious.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

The obvious answer as to how we differentiate ourselves: we get paid $45/hr more.

So the guy who gets paid $50/hr must have some of the following qualities:
Faster
More accurate
More responsive
More knowledgeable
Communicate better
Etc.

In other words, be a better value.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Must be quality of education and experience.  The same could be asked what is the difference between an engineer who has 20 years experience and one that is a fresh grad? A fresh grad can do basic engineering calculations, but that life experience must be worth something, or the salary of the 20 year engineer would not be twice that of the fresh grad.

I was contacted by a head hunter today, looking for someone to go work for a major oil company in the Middle East. The company is paying $10,000 per month plus huge benefits.  In today’s reality, why would a company in the middle east be the least bit interested in paying that kind of money to bring in a American? Especially with the attitude of certain segments of the population in that part of the world  toward Americans? And when they have that huge labor pool just a short hop over the Arabian Sea?  I have to believe that the $5 an hour engineer in India just doesn’t have the required skill set.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

(OP)
OK but what about an engineer in India (by the way I did not mean to point out India I meant anywhere that can supply cheaper engineering services) with 20 years experience vs a American engineer with 20 years experience.

Lets even suggest that they have the same skills and experience.

Why would a company select one in America over one in India if the work could be translated over the phone or internet.

Think about it.  There are reasons to hire both.

sms: you make the first good point in a round about way.
Some engineering skills are region specific.  I'm sure that engineers in Alaska have more experience designing for cold weather than engineers in Mali.  So therefore you might pay more for an engineer in Alaska to do the design than an engineer in Timbuktu.
 

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

My opinion, the engineer that is paid $5 bucks an hour in Timbuktu is probably making a decent salary in Timbuktu! Salary of most occupations is based on "location, location, location" very similar to the slogan used in assessing real estate property.

What difference does it make if the Timbuktu engineer has an MS or even PhD, that is comparable to similar degrees granted in the US. It makes NO DIFFERENCE! I would bet anybody on this forum that the engineer from Timbuktu, if given the opportunity to relocate to the US or any other developed country, will NOT work for $5 bucks an hour for very long. So, comparisons between foreign engineers and engineers educated in this country are meaningless. Salary will be dictated by cost of living in the region and the supply of "qualified" job applicants.

I suppose those of us that could relocate to Timbuktu for jobs could try and negotiate a slightly higher salary, perhaps $7 bucks an hour. You never know, it could mean a better life style?  

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

I have done more than a little "repair" on CAD designs that originated in the Far East.  I don't know if we're worth 10 times as much, but there are some things you just can't get done right for $5/hour, no matter where you look.

Due to illness, the part of The Tick will be played by... The Tick.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

8
Metengr,
You've really hit the nail on the head.  If a $50/hr engineer in the US pays $2,000/month for his mortgage and a $5/hr pays $150/month then who pays more hours of labor for housing.  Same with food, schooling for kids, medical care, etc.

You don't buy milk and bread on the world market, you buy it at the neighborhood market.  

The thing is that the more people in a location make $5/hr then the more money there is in the local economy.  In short order you find too much money chasing too little goods and the prices go up, then the wages feel upward pressure, and soon the whole world is better off.  As these wages are pushed upward, the labor market can no longer bear the extra cost of remote management and people look elsewhere for the necessary differentials.

In my lifetime, "Made in Japan" has gone from meaning "CRAP" to meaning "Lexus".  South Korea has gone from a $2/day labor market to Seoul having the highest density of PhD's in the world and "Made in South Korea" standing for some pretty awesome products.  Companies will always take advantage of localized differentials between value and cost, but these differentials are always temporary.  

I just don't see any cause for either gloom nor doom.  Maybe changing careers 4 times and moving for a job 16 times in my life makes me see that change really is the big constant in the universe and within every change is opportunity for profit and personal advancement.  People not looking for opportunity are called "victims" and they sit around whining about the good old days.  I've always found the next challenge to be way superior to past laurels.


David

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

QCE:

For a slightly different take on the question (but it will tie in, trust me)

I work in Forensics.  My firm has built a reputation as being very thorough, and one of the best in our area.  As a result we are able to, and do, charge more than “going rate”.  We can do this because our customers have an expectation of a higher level of quality.  At the end of the day we still offer similar services than our competitors.  It has taken us a whole lot of effort to develop that reputation, and if we lose it, we might never be able to get it back.  

The point is that regardless of the reality of value, it is the perception of value that your customers have to understand.  Often the perception follows the reality, but in the end it is the perception.

In terms of the Bangalore engineer, the same relationship exists.  Currently there is a perception that the $50/hour engineer is worth that money.  Rather than what is the current difference in the engineers, perhaps we need to think about what has happened in the past to give us the perception of value in the eyes of our customers (for the most part our individual customers are our employers).

Historically I would start looking at licensure, and world leadership in education (both academic and applied) of our engineers have lead to the current perception of value.  There has to be reasons other than just convenience?  Any other ideas?

Dave

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

3
It doesn't mean that if an engineer has graduated elswhere then in an "economically developped" country that he knows better then an engineer who graduated in an "underdevelopped" country.  I was born and raised until I was 13 years old in a country that is considered "underdevelopped".  I was in the top 20% of my class, and maybe top 30% in the whole elementary school.  When I came to Canada, I jumped grades, and was the best student that my high school has had in years!  I was maybe in top 10-15% in CEGEP and the same in University...  What did that tell me?  That there are a lot of my classmates from my elementary school, who are working as engineers over there, that are better then me, but that don't have all the opportunities and big companies over there like we have in the "developped" countries.  This does not mean that if put in a situation they will not be able to do an as good or even a better job then us here.
And by the way, I do not differentiate myself from a $5/hour engineer.  They simply live in a place where that is considered a very good pay!

Coka

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

But COKA you were the top in your old country, and as you were in school you would find that you were surrounded by other privileged kids... But the majority of people in that country would not be able to match that, ie didnt have the skills or ability to get to the same position. Life circumstances holding them back. Once you left that situation and got to a country that had a better standing in regards to education and such you found that you were even further up compared to your compatriates. This is what Id have expected, as in canada there are many opportunities to get education and progress but not the same drive as what there was in your previous country. The need for improvement not as acute as most people have health houses and cars unlike the 'old' country. The drive to exceed and live a better life isnt as strong.....

does that make sense or not ?

Rugged

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Rugged,

Don't get me wrong.  I am blessed that I came to Canada and that I am where I am today.  However, bookwise, not opportunitywise, I don't think that "developped" countries are ahead of the rest of the world!  My country was ravaged by war, and when we moved here, my parents' diplomas were not worth anything.  Mind you they are not engineers.  However, when nobody else could get landed immigrant visas and get out of the country due to the embargo, Canadian companies were issuing work visas for all kind of engineers from over there.  I kid you not, there is at least 6 of my compatriotes that escaped the war and that got big bucks to come to work in Canada that I know of.  All because of the experience that they have as well as the technical knowledge way above average.  And they were in the pool that is classified in this post as $5/hour engineers.
 
And what I was trying to say in my previous post is that I was above average over there: in the top 30%, and here I was closer to the top: in the top 15%.  It may be because students were more pushed towards science there, whereas here they have a bigger choice... Or simply because as of elementary school, they new that they will have to work hard to be able to get $5/hour pay check.  I know...  I was like that too...  When you know that it is burning under your feet, and that you really have to work hard as of elementary school if you want to be someone later on in life, you study hard...

Coka

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

COKA this was not a dig far from it, Im british based and work in facilities. I too went to canada went to the west coast and worked for a company on the fly as I was seeing a canadian girl. I spent 10 months or so over there and enjoyed the experiance but you know as they say there is nothing like home. I missed my friends and I missed my family, so as things were not to great with my 'friend' I decided to return back to the UK. I had a few jobs after returning and then settled in this job where I have been for the past three years. I did some overseas work and I worked in Latvia and also over in Bosnia, now I can see why people wanted to leave Bosnia, a beautiful country but it is / was ravaged with war and bad feeling between the poeples that lived there. It would be a great country if it wasnt for the squabbles that existed.... Anyways I was lucky I lived in the UK, and I could go back to there as it is a country that has opportunities and support. Canada was the same, it had opportunities and the scenery and lifestyle in BC was exemplatory. I really liked it and could see the pull that it had on people. But as I said things didnt work out and I missed home way too much to stay in BC and I returned back to the UK. A  previous post said you dont buy milk and bread on the world market and that is so true, its the things around you that give you satisfaction, friends family and life style. I saw that and well followed my instinct. Im pretty glad about that now as Im settled and I have a nice girlfriend and live comfortable here in scotland. People do move about and they move for many reasons.

Rugged

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

The issues are not only costs (prices) but also supply and demand as well as quality and location, which is tied to costs.  When someone goes to a department store to try something out for the first time and they expect the cost of an item to be within a certain price range and then find an item in that range they take it off the shelf and purchase it.  Perhaps there were other similar products on the shelf and they cost significantly more.  If the original purchased item works for the person, then they will most likely be satisfied. If it doesn't they will start to look more closely at the differences between the item they purchased and the higher priced items.  Then they have a decision to make - to try another lower cost item in hopes that it will work for them (maybe the first was a fluke or a lemon) or go to a (hopefully) superior although more costly product.  Everyone wants the best value for their dollars.

I do business development and one of the conflicts that I face with my "pitch" is that although my firm doesn't do the same thing over and over again we try to promote our versatility, adaptability, our experience with a wide range of clients, and industries and problem types versus our competitors that only do one thing.  Often times they (our competitors) have that "thing" down so pat that they can bring on less costly junior engineers to do the basics.  Even though they will take several more hours to do the "thing" at their lower rate they do cost less.  (What they produce may not and probably is not the best product for the clients money.)
SOOOOOOO, how do we get to location and its relation to costs?  I have probably worked with scores of engineers from India, China and the middle east in the twenty or more years that I have been in engineering, and one thing they have in common is that they most likely went to school for at least their masters either in the UK or the US.  Therefore assuming their capabilities, i.e. their quality, is the same as an American or UK or Canadien engineer and that they live in an area where the cost of living is much less lower than ours, then they can afford to charge less and still have a standard of living that they find acceptable, albeit not necessarily as "high" as ours.  If that is where they are based and with the global economy and worldwide instant communications through the internet they can be a very economical solution to the business model where in order to be competitive, they have to continually reduce costs, then overall prices and then they can still maintain or even increase their profits.  Profits are not evil and are necessary in order for capital expansions to take place (growth) and also what everyone would like - raises in their salaries/rates of pay.  However, price is not the only variable, so either improve turnaround and/or quality.

In my business development, that is what I do not know how to demonstrate, higher quality on what the client wants in the near future. I can demonstrate quality on past jobs but not the future one.  I like to think that I can do a better job.  I sure love trying to! And it gives me great satisfaction.  But what I am selling is not a manufactured item that has gone through a series of tests and demonstrations prior to placement on a store shelf.  The client can not see or touch the product or even read the specs before they make a decision to purchase my product.  Put ten different competing engineers in a room and ask for a problem solution and you could get 10 different answers.  Some will be more economical than others, some could be delivered quicker than others and some may be of a higher quality whether that quality is defined by performance, or life cycle, or some other parameter.  This is the challenge that sales people face in engineering and it is also the challenge that we each face in our careers.  We have to demonstrate, i.e. sell ourselves, more often that we would like to think - such as only when we are looking for a new job.  Look at some of the book titles for marketing and you will see titles that read "tooting your own horn", "getting out and doing", "meeting people and presenting yourself". The squeeky wheel gets the grease.  Whoever advertises has a better chance of getting the work irregardless of their quality.  So either you hit them the potential client with a special three for one type deal (low cost widgets from far away) or else keep reminding your potential clients that you are here to serve/meet their needs. I am sure there is more and I am still learning.  The lesson is ever changing and elusive.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

We depend on quick turn around. We don't have time to wait for someone in another country to wake up and go to work so that they can read our Email and get back to us when we wake up. We need drawings quoted in as little as one day or we won't get the job.

I've spent many years managing overseas engineering teams; It's quite costly, depending on the products. The logistics sometimes make the $5 engineer more like $75.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Interesting. We sometimes work tag team around the globe, so the US guys finish up, then spend and hour on the phone with us, we pick it up from there and run into the next morning. Then back to them.

This works a lot better now as we can load everything onto the intranet, or even share the same files.

Admittedly we don't have many jobs that can be resolved in 8 hours, and if we do, they don't get outsourced.

Cheers

Greg Locock

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

(OP)
I'm not talking about local value of the pay.
Of course that is not the same.
I'm talking about why would a company in say Texas pay an engineer in Texas $50/hour when he can get the drawing done for $5/hour and e-mailed to him.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

The only reason a company would pay more, is that they believe they are getting more.  The values of US engineering would be closeness and perceived quality.  Both of these have a dollar value for any given project; consequently when they add up to less than $45, outsourcing is justified.  The interesting part to me is that the value of closeness and perceived quality is different for every individual.

This comes down to a very fundemental thing for me: I believe it is my personal responsibility to ensure that I am worth more to my employer than cheap outsourcing.  I must further my education and grow my experience in a valuable way.  The world does not owe me anything...

Grüss - Scott

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

QCE,
I picked this tidbit up from the internet a couple of years ago.  I have found that it answers many of the issues related to what one pays for services.  It hangs on my office door...

High Quality
Fast Service
Low Price

Pick any two!

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

QCE,
Well there's no good reason why! The bad news is that "underdeveloped" countries develop themselves and compete against the rest. Too bad, that's the market. If we can't be as cheap, we have to try and be better. We may succeed, we may not. The good news is that if we don't, "underdeveloped" countries will soon become as expensive as the others and will lose their temporary advantage.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

2
Great forums here folks, glad I found them.

I work for a very large company and outsourcing to another country will happen for a lot of IS programming work that needs to get done.  Trips have been made to and meetings attended in a middle east country.  Similarly, outsourcing of manufacturing is being investigated in an asian country, again with trips and meetings behind us.
IMO I agree that the logistics will be a huge cost upper, whether the execs realize it yet or not.  I only fear that by the time they do realize it, irrepairable damage will already have been done.  Imagine the cost of shipping stuff back and forth to asia everytime a change or repair has to be made!  The internet drastically reduces strain of logistics for information work however.  Large volumes of data can be transferred securely back and forth on a daily basis.
What looks good on paper usually drives executive decisions.  Unfortunately the paper numbers are often based on many assumptions by ivory-tower dwellers who are more often rewarded for incorrect positive projections than accurate negative ones.

I'm afraid that the only way to guarantee viability is to always be more valuable than your peers.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

You know as we argue about motgages and how much milk is in the corner store I think that the persepective we HAVE to take is - Is a corporation going to see the value in paying $50 an hour (which would be a really nice raise for me especially if that was American $) when they can use an Engineer employed in a sister company which costs them $5 an hour on the payroll?  

I work for a global company making inroads into India and China.  How do I as an individual remain competetive in this market?

This isn't even outsourcing because we both work for the same company.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

A $50 engineer is better, on the whole than a $5 engineer. Lots of reasons why. Economics of professional skills are diferent than economics of common labor.
The point is - what are you buying? If it is say a nuclear submarine that will carry 60 men several hundred feet below the sea for six months while carrying a substantial amount of nuclear war heads, you probably want the $50 engineer. If on the other hand you just want to get a cheap strucure, mill, or whatever, so you can run it for a short time, show positve cash flow and sell it, you will probably get the $5 engineer. By the time problems crop up, they will be someone elses.
It amazes me how pervasive this attitude has become today in bussines.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

DRC1, it really shows that you have not had the opportunity to meet and talk to a $5 engineer...  It is unfortunate, but you really are missing on a great deal of ideas and knowledge that you could acquire from a $5 engineer on, for example, nuclear engineering.  

Coka

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

North America does not have the monopoly on good engineers.  As a North American engineer, I have noticed that most engineers from underdeveloped countries are more educated than their NA counterparts.

With regards to experience, an experienced engineer at the helm counters that argument.  Outsourcing is the only way a company can deliver an item or service for less because finally that is the only advantage when margins are so low.

As many of you,I have seen and felt the devaluation of engineering, from my perspective obviously, which makes me think it's going to be a far harder road ahead.

VOD

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Well, I am a less than $5 engineer.

The only difference between the $50 engineer and $5 engineer is location, and the 100 years more of industry history behind the $50 engineer.

I think the $50 engineers are better generally, because of that history, but maybe the difference is not as big as in salary. But you can live a good life in China as a $5 engineer. So, it is about location.

Many many $5 engineer are well educated. But that is not because they want to, that is because they have to. Someone said in a post that as a engineer, he earns only $10000 more than a bus driver in US. But in China, even in Shanghai, a big city, an engineer earns 2 or 3 times more than a bus driver. Life will be very hard if you are an assembly worker in Shanghai, so you have to get a high degree to become an engineer. I am now on a trip in Germany. I found that being a worker here can also live a good, maybe not rich life here. So, that is the difference.

Still, I think $50 engineers are better, but maybe $25 is the proper price. Just a joke!

Wang Chong
Mechanical Designing
HOMAG AG

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

If you are responsible for signing off tooling worth $200,000 then it doesn’t make any significant difference to the overall cost of the project whether or not you use a $5/hr or a $50/hr engineer. Most people like to meet in person the engineer who they are relying on to design their product. If you are buying services from an over seas consultant then the $5/hr engineer becomes $25/hr.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

History
Economy of the country/region
Cost of living
Population of country and as a result, available oppurtunities i.e. supply and demand for engineers
Competition
Number of institutes offering engineering
Cost of education
All the above are some of the differences in the regions leading to the difference in wages for the same job.

Thanks and regards
Sayee Prasad R CEng MWeldI MIOMMM


If it moves, train it...if it doesn't move, calibrate it...if it isn't written down, it never happened!

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

$5/Hr? Wow... I am just 300 km away from Banglore and I am making $3/hr. Let us start from US and start calculating the salaries with distances on a log scale upto one half of the hemisphere(vertical, I mean) and then go back and to the second hemisphere. Voila!

I am very thankful if anybody can tell me an equation that tells how much salary one should get. There is another engineer in my company getting around $6/hr but he hardly knows any engineering.

Somebody above said that $5 an hour engineer in India just doesn’t have the required skill set and I pity his ignorance. I was offered a job, sometime back, by a pharma MNC (in one of the developed countries) with same salary that they are paying to their nationals. That doesn't mean that they are short of engineers or we have better pharmaceutical experience.

I don't think there is a point comparing $5 and $50 thing. I am very much interested to have a salary of $50/hr in Inida but there is nobody to give it. If somebody starts it then that doesn't mean I am equal to a well experienced and knowledgeable US engineer.

I never believe in 100 years industry history, for we are taught history in schools and in that case I should also get $50/hr now. History is not subjected to one particular location and anybody can learn anything from anywhere.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

(OP)
quark I think you missed the point.

If you had a company in the US and needed someone to do a calculation for you.  Would you rather pay $50/hour for an american engineer or $5/hour for an engineer in India?  With the internet it can be done in the same time.  This is a contract rate not a persons wage.  Note $50/hour is not likely, it is probably more like $125/hour but you get the point.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Basically, it is location of the work and the "going rate" in that location.  Why $50/hr vs $5/hr for an engineer?  Why $1/kg vs $0.01/kg for carrots?  Why pay $40k for a new car (that loses its value by a third within the hour of driving it off the lot) vs. $3k for an old beat up clunker?  Why a Rolex rather than a Hong Kong knock-off?      
    One point that has been missed is the responsibility of the designs.  In US and Canada the engineer must "supervise" the work being done under him and sign the drawing - pretty hard if the drawings are originating from scratch in India or China.  The US design engineer reviews the drawings, makes a few changes, sends it back, gets it back and signs it.  Was the drawing prepared under his direction?  Good article in Ontario's P.Eng. magazine "Engineering Dimensions" a few months back about this issue of outsourcing.
    By the way, I work in India (previously in China) and there are a lot of fine and bright engineers over here.  Sadly, the system, in our field, doesn't really allow them much in the way of the ingenuity factor that you can utilize other places although it is getting tougher in the developed North America.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Bloody hell see thread on "How's dem career prospects?"

If an engineer is working for $5/hr they need to be shot. A recently arrived engineer from india told me that engineers are millionaires in india, just that they choose to live like they do, tired old arguments about a totally different value system is almost irrelevant. What does the $50/hr engineer do to control the $5/.hr engineer, that is the question.

Answer: bloody little so don't blame the $5/hr engineer.


sc

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

I don't buy the $5 vs. $50 deal. Correct me if I am wrong - engineers in India are paid about 1/4 - 1/5 going rate in USA. However, cost of living is less...cars cost less.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

(OP)
Did you guys read the post are you just slow.

We are not talking about wages.  Get in the game.

We are talking about why would someone pay more for engineering services in say USA when they can get the same services for cheaper in say India.

We are talking about outsourcing.  It is the issue.  But thanks for your rants.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

QCE, we are not slow. If you want a relevant answer to your query, then pose a more definitive question.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

QCE, this issue was already covered in another thread. The reason countries such as USA outsource is because some non-engineer manager figures it will make more profits. But that is debatable, after all is said and done. Rather, it is probably more a function of how well the operation is run.

The reason companies in the USA hire foreigner engineers to work in the USA is to keep overall salaries down. When I was graduating from college in 1974, it was the Iranians. Now, there is a government proviso that the foreign applicant to a job must have a special skill set, and he is not displacing an American engineer should he get the job. That sounds good in theory, but is a farce in real life.

The reason the US Government condones all of the above is because they receive major contributions from corporations that profit from outsourcing.

As for the post above that underdeveloped countries generally graduate engineers with more education than their North American counterparts, that is nonsense.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

"The reason companies in the USA hire foreigner engineers to work in the USA is to keep overall salaries down. When I was graduating from college in 1974, it was the Iranians. Now, there is a government proviso that the foreign applicant to a job must have a special skill set, and he is not displacing an American engineer should he get the job. That sounds good in theory, but is a farce in real life."

Especially when the American Engineers are laid off and the foriegn engineers are retained.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Oh, are you suggesting that the company should discriminate against the lower paid worker with the same skill set when it comes to retrenchments?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

If there needs to be a layoff- the foreigners should be the first to go. They are the ones who came to the USA to steal our jobs in the first place.

Cheers.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

'your' jobs eh? I must have forgotten the bit where it is written that every USAn is entitled to a job. I'm pretty sure it isn't written in the Bible, Koran or the American Constitution. I haven't checked the NRA handbook, though that sounds like a possibility.

Well, with attitudes like that I'm not surprised that outsourcing and offshoring are popular.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Offshoring works for jobs like customer service, but not for engineering.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

Oh, that'd be why I'm designing cars for /manufacture/ in India, Germany and the USA then.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

yep, USA jobs should be for US citizens first. This concept of thinking that certain foreigners have a skill set that we don't have, and no American worker will be dispalced, is a farce. I have personally observed a case where I was the one who wrote the test to be given to make the determination. The engineer "Sam" (whom shall not be identified by nationality), never took the test. It was sent to someone more knowledgable, and that unknown person wrote the test. When I discovered "Sam's" resume, he claimed to have C++ programming expertise (not true- he told me it was his brother who was a programmer): he claimed to have written certain Excel workbooks (not true- I was the author of those); and he had claimed to have engineered several building projects in the USA. (Not true- his only experience was doing some microwave tower FEA inputting in his native country). His only experience in the US was in management and marketing. He was as phony as a 3-dollar bill.


Cheers.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

FalsePrecision:

I am shocked at your thinking.  The USA is open to all, and no jobs should be reserved for anyone.  If american citizens want to keep their jobs, then the answer is simple, THINK.  I am an american worker, and anyone that comes here legally should, could, and most likely will take my job, if I let them.  They won't get my job, because I think, better than the next person, and that value is worth more at my higher salary than the person that doesn't think as hard at a lower salary.  It follows that doctrine of survival of the fittest, it is no different in the work place.

I would agree that we need a level playing field here in the US to compete and that our workers suffer when there is an imbalance.  When I see China posting 1000%+ increases in men's trouser production in 2 months, how can we compete?  China's government subsidizes production at all levels and this is going to have drastic impacts on the US and other developing and industralized countries.  I don't see Chinese workers coming here to take my job though, because I design their production facilities, because I can think.

Gone are the days where american blue collar workers stand on production lines making low value widgets and white collar workers check the performance of widget production. Personally I am glad, let China suffer witht he environmental disasters that come with low value widget production. Out thinking is imparitive since we will be the ones that will make work for the blue collar workers.  I am confident we will keep thinking which in turn will make plenty of work for all.

Bob

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

BobPE-
OK , be shocked. This is a forum, and I can give my opinion. The US Gov't H-1B visa requirements are flawed, and I maintain they will remain so because the large US corporations profit hugely at the expense of unemployed, talented American engineers. Those large corporations contribute to the Republican and Democrat parties. The smaller companies benefit by keeping the average salary down, such as what happened with the flood of Iranians willing to work for peanuts in the 1974-1977 years.

By the way, I have been an engineer since 1974, and have worked in 2 large corporations, and 8 small consulting firms.

From my experience, 75% of all foreign engineers that I have worked with are full of BS.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

FalsePrecision:

Don't get me wrong, I value everyones opinion, that is the best part of the forums here.

I worked for several consulting firms over the years and have done engineering for major industries all over the world.  In my opinion, I am thankful for H1-B engineers, they keep me gainfully employeed, because I think better than they do, or as you implied, than they can think.

US corporations do profit from H1-B engineers, and that makes my profit margins extremely high.  You see, I get to go in and fix all the bad, unthoughtful, engineering and in doing so make myself look like a hero in the ROI department.  It is a win win, I get paid well, the company gets great ROI.  Without poorer quality engineers, what would I do.  I am not afraid to compete, but when I can't, I take advantage of the situation.

I contribute to Republican and Democratic parties too, isn't America wonderful!!!  And I agree, many foreign engineers do not have the same level of training that US engineers have when schooled outside the country.  I just see so much opportunity there.

Bob

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

And not to mention the language barriers make it worse when they don't understand something, need to train you on their specialty, or don't want to comunicate because of an error.  And the meantime, a more productive engineer has been sent home for good on the same pay scale.  Something is wrong, and I don't understand why it is happening.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

In a job I had for 3 years, the engineering and drafting work was sent offshore. I was in charge of quality-checking their work. To tell the truth, I was unsucessful at finding employment at the time, so had to settle on taking this particular job.
After about 1-1/2 years at this, I was getting very frustrated. They kept making the same mistakes (some of which were amazingly inept). I was wondering if their local managers were doing their jobs (the outfit in this foreign country seemed to have about 3 managers for every actual engineer).
Later on, I found out, thru some company grapevine, that the various managers all had some sort of "creative accounting" scheme going on to look good to top management, i.e., "productivity has improved 25% this month". They were given cash bonuses.  
I can only imagine, perhaps the engineers were allowed only half the normal time to do their tasks. The engineers would  quit after a few months anyway.
This was a job from Hell for me. I finally manged to find employment elsewhere.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

BobPE,
I only contribute my income tax to the Demos and Repubs (sarcasm). I would have donated to the campaign, but declined because my letters and E-mails to my elected representatives were never answered.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

FalsePrecision - hope you didn't have to stamp those drawings.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

BigH-
I did. I no longer work for that company, as I said.
Hopefully there will be no legal repercussions down the road. Do you think I should report this operation to the State Licensing Board? Or to the State Business Licensing Office?
It is a multi-state, multi-national company, with its headquarters in the USA, an S-Corporation owned by a naturalized US citizen.
I am not interested in making trouble for them. Let sleeping dogs lie.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

There are gems and turds in the recent crop of immigrant engineers coming to Canada.  Just like there are gems and turds in the collection of Canadian graduates.

But I guarantee you one thing:  ANY graduate of either chemical or mechanical engineering from a Canadian university can answer this question correctly:

"I have a 6" pipe with a 1/4" wall, and a 2" pipe with a 1/4" wall.  Both are made from the same material.  Which one can withstand more internal pressure before it bursts?"

Roughly HALF of the chemical and mechanical engineers, recent immigrants all, that I interviewed recently, were unable to answer that question correctly!  That horrified me.  100% of the pipefitters and millwrights and even 50% of the electricians I asked that question of were able to answer it correctly!  

Fortunately, I managed to find one bright fellow originally from India who was not only able to answer the question correctly, but who wrote out the hoop stress equation from memory and explained each term to me!

So yes, there's a need for some due dilligence in hiring and licensing foreign-trained engineers!  And a year of Canadian experience under the mentorship of a professional engineer, which is required here in Canada prior to licensure, is an absolute necessity for public protection!

As to my feelings about the rates of immigration of engineers into Canada, you can see them and the statistics which support them at www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm  .  I am absolutely NOT against immigration- but immigration at rates which are considerable MULTIPLES of the demand are not in anyone's best interest, except perhaps in the short-term interest of a few greedy and short-sighted engineering employers!

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

All this brings another question, how can companies have engineers do work accross state or international boundries when those engineers are not licensed where the company or work is needed?

Examples: A) A non-licensed engineer sitting in Texas doing projects that will be implemented in New York.

B) An engineer not licensed in Arkansas doing work for a company in Arkansas while living in South Africa.  The project will be constructed in Arkansas.

C) A non licensed engineer that works on projects that will be constructed in multiple states (pipeline, electrical, or telecommunications) but the engineer is not licensed in any of the states.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

OK, back to the original query-

Hire me at $50 an hour, and you get good engineering, and I can be reached on my cell phone. I won't nickle and dime you to death either.

Hire the guy in Bangalore for about 1/4 - 1/5 of that, and be prepared to go thru 3 plans checks, and you better have plenty of Valium in your medicine cabinet.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

I think I get to run away from any structural construction which is designed and constructed here in India by our engineers. Perhaps, there is a bright chance for valium producers.

Thanks for the eye opener, FalsePrecision. We didn't build structures for ages and we still live in huts. Also, your previous company selected the best engineering outit in India for the contract work and this needs no proof.

Other absolute truths(that don't require proofs)

1. All trivial questions asked in these forums are from Inida.
2. No. of Management Colleges = 3 x No. of Engineering Colleges
3. $50/Hr Engineer = 4x($50/4)/Hr Engineer (thanks for accepting it atleast algebraic way)
4. Probability of a random event can be 100%
5. There are no issues of public safety in some countries when the orignial engineers of the country are handling the things.

God bless us all, God bless democracy.


RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

I am in India and get less than $5/hr. I do structural work and these structures do not keep on falling. One never had. But this will never entitle me for $50! I think there is not much difference in either engineering or engineers here and there.

Blame it on the magic figures of currency-conversion rates which are highly ludicrous and defy all sense of wisdom. Perhaps $ is the culprit.

Ciao.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

I have been for long tempted to respond as I am from Bangalore.
5$/ hour is a huge amount perhaps paid by those who work for US companies and their contribution to Indian economy is negligible or insignificant.
 Lots of guys working in the engineering industries and labs get paid far lesss but are doing a good work. Our trains run well, planes fly, telephones work, satellites are launched successfully etc.
 But given the huge population and illiteracy the benefits do not reach the underprivileged.Also there is exploitation by the politicians and bureaucracy(perhaps universal).

With all these handicaps life is still interesting, meaningful and satisfying.

RE: $50/hour engineer vs. $5/hour engineer

OK quark, here's another set of truisms for you:

- anyone who claims they're an engineer is an engineer and has the inalienable right to work as one anywhere in the world they choose to, the moment they arrive- or even while they continue to reside in their home country

- all engineering programs and universities and colleges all over the world are utterly equivalent

- human life is valued equally in all places in the world, and hence the entire world views public and private safety in the same way

- all engineering issues in all disciplines are exactly the same all over the world, and hence an engineer from any part of the world is immediately qualified to work as an engineer anywhere else in the world

The list above is one which a great many people in my country want me to swallow.  Sorry, but I just can't choke it down, and certainly not with my recent experience of interviewing so-called "experienced" so-called "engineers" who recently immigrated to my country.  I did manage to find one among their number who is perfectly qualified for the job, but even he will not be suitable for licensure until he learns about the local regulatory environment, codes and standards, and understands the responsibilities conferred by a license to practice professional engineering.  And I'm very glad that my profession goes through the bother of checking the credentials and experience of prospective engineers to ensure that a few of the cretins pretending to be engineers are at least denied a license- something which does not prevent them from finding a job, but at least ensures that they cannot offer their services directly to the public.

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