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Giving Notice of Leaving
3

Giving Notice of Leaving

Giving Notice of Leaving

(OP)
It appears that I'm about to accept a new position with another company. The new employer is on a very tight schedule and would like me to begin work as soon as possible.

That said, both myself and my future employer would like me to satisfy my professional obligation to my current employer. The question is, what is that obligation?

Is that obligation in any way diminished by the fact that my current employer does not provide severance pay or benefits when people are laid off?

I'll appreciate any guidance and I really want to handle this "the right way."

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

2 weeks is reasonably professional.  

Given the policy of your company, it may not matter, they could just walk you out immediately after you give notice, so you might want to at least clear out your personal effects ASAP.

Personally, I'd like to give as much notice as feasible, since you never know if you might wind up working for them or some of the same people elsewhere in the future.

TTFN

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

How long until you can wrap up the project you are currently working on?

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

(OP)
Melone, I think that just a few days would wrap up anything that's currently active. The problem is that new stuff pops up every day so they'd likely want to have me around until they could get another person in.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Ultimately, you need to look out for yourself; no one else will.  

Balance that against how much they truly need you and how much goodwill you wish to leave behind.

The longest I've ever stayed was 4 weeks after a resignation.

TTFN

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Doesn't your contract with current employer specify your minimum notice period?  I'm from the UK and each employer I've worked for has had a notice clause in the contract - both from them to me and vice versa.  Not sure if it is different in the US / Canada.

I've given 2 months before, but only because I was asked directly my Managing Director if I was planning on leaving the company on the same day that I had accepted my new job.  

Cheers

James

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Isn't it something like a quid pro quo?
If the employer is able to remove you at a moments notice, without repercussions, then you have an obligation to respond in kind. One thing you can do on this earth is educate without turning the other cheek.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I should add that I gave my last employer 6 monthds notice 14 years ago.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I agree with IRstuff, two weeks is the professional way to go. I just want to add that those two weeks should not include a week of vacation.

You are a professional, act like one. Give your written notice and don't burn a bridge, always leave on good termes, even if they are not good.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

(OP)
JamesCG: I'm an "at-will" employee. My contract specifically says that my employment may be terminated at any time for any reason, by either party, with no prior notice. Therefore, this is a professional ethics issue, not a legal one.

Boomerang: So is it your view then that given the "at-will" status and "no severance" nature of my employment that I should simply announce at the end of the day that I won't be returning?

IRstuff: I agree with that I must ultimately watch out for my best interests. I think that the moment I accept a new offer, my best interests are with pleasing the new employer. I'm more concerned with doing the right thing as defined the professional community than I am with leaving goodwill behind.

profengmen: What you say is what I've always believed myself. I've never before been faced with a situation where a new employer would significantly benefit from having me start immediately. I'm also not accustomed to working for companies with a "no-severance" policy. WRT the vacation thing, that would be very slimy, indeed.

At this point what I'm thinking is giving 2-weeks notice as follows: 1 standard 4-day week (I do 4x10's) followed by another 4 days in the next month scheduled to be mutually beneficial (it would really help to have some cross-over between me and a replacement). This was suggested by the new employer and seems like a decent compromise.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

A two week notice is standard. An employer should not expect any more notice than that. Granted projects generally can not be wrapped up in this amount of time. Before giving notice, I would gather personal items/files off your PC in case your employer has a bad reaction (and some will no matter what you do).

Try not to burn bridges. I learned this the hard way but at the same time felt some satisfaction in burning the bridge (saying things that had to be said in a professional manner). Some bridges are designed to fail so bridge collapse is eminent and there is nothing you can do.

The fact that the company does not provide severance pay, etc, should have no influence on your notice of resignation. Yes, they have no problem letting you go today with no notice but they are the ones with the control.

One word of advise, get a letter of recommendation before you leave the company. This may help later if your ex-employer decides you are an idiot for whatever reason (mad cause you quite, jealous, or maybe were an idiot- not saying you are just trying to illustrate). Most employers are not willing to bad mouth you to your face but will when someone calls for a reference. Yes, I had one bad experience but learned alot.

Good Luck!

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Beggar:

I just recently changed jobs, and went through a similar thing.  The employer had the right to terminate me at any time.  When asked when I could begin by my new firm, I told them 2 to 4 weeks, but if my past company reacted poorly, I might be available tomorrow.

In the end I figured out the best point (after a big launch phase) with my previous employer, and the firm I was going to understood and had more respect for me because I had the consideration to work with my previous employer to help them as much as possible.  (and yes, they actually said that to me)

Now I may have been fortunate having an understanding new employer, but they initially wanted me as soon as possible as well.  It never hurts to ask, and to explain why you would want to give your current employer every opportunity to work things out.

Dave
p.s. By the way, I agree with the previous posts of cleaning out your things.  In this above case, I was prepared to grab my jacket and walk out the door when I gave notice!

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Beggar
Actions speak louder than words and you are the only person  that can evaluate on site and make that decision.
Despite the 'policy' of instant termination and no severance pay, is that what actually happens?
For example if your existing work environment fits the definition of an optomistic employee is someone who brings their lunch to work (they figure they'll be around long enough to eat) it might be real risky giving two weeks notice.
Square it with your new employer that despite the risk of instant dismissal (do you know your existing employers agenda?)you personally feel comfortable giving two weeks notice.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Beggar said:
"The problem is that new stuff pops up every day so they'd likely want to have me around until they could get another person in."

If the situation were reversed and they were not happy with your work and wanted to let you go, would they keep you around until you found a new job?  I doubt it.  While I agree that you should behave professionally and you shouldn't burn bridges behind you, don't make their problem your problem.  You've got enough to worry about with switching jobs.  Two weeks notice is reasonable.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

If you give them the std. two weeks notice, and they keep giving you new things to do, it is their problem.  Give them the notice, and plan to work the two weeks if they require it.

I am partial to the HP 55, not saying that it is better than the HP 15.  Now, the argument of Post vs K&E paled compared to the debate about RPN vs whatever the other system was called when the calculators replaced slide rules.

My first pocket calculator wouldn't fit in any of my pockets, and took a months salary to pay for it.

rmw

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Quite often the question of how much notice will you give your current employer before you come to work for us is a subtle way of asking how much notice will you give us when you find another job.

If you think of it that way then the answer is to give the customary two full weeks (or other local/industry custom) and ask if they would give you permission to take calls from your current employer, maybe pop in for a few hours or other assistance to your current employer to give your current employer a reasonable transition from your services to those of another employee.

Another related issue is to always have your current activities well enough documented so that if you were suddenly unable to work due to sickness or accident that someone could step in and take over your duties. If you are in that position then handing over the vast majority of your duties within two weeks should not pose too much of a hardship, especially if you are available for phone support.

Be professional when leaving (and in every other action) to do otherwise can only hurt you.

I personally would not want to work for someone who insisted that I quit immediately and start without turning my current job over to someone else. They do not respect professionalism and will not respect your professionalism.


PS still use my HP-15 daily, best calculator I've ever had in terms of power and usability. Not as powerful as my laptop but better battery life.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

The thing to remember is that contract conditions often reflect the uncertainties of life when they hired you i.e. is this guy going to be any good or not?

If you work for them for any period of time, then unless they had a review point or a good HR department, the chances are no-one ever did this treview, except so far as salary and any general changes that affect all employees, and they do not reflect your current working and professional relationship.

This means that when you come to leave, unless there are exceptional reasons for wanting to stick to the exact legal constraints of the contract, you need to reflect on your current position and value to them.

In that regard, what you suggest seems very reasonable; just have your proposal ready for when you actually resign and be prepared to be reasonable. This will put you in the strongest position. Unless, of course, your bosses are morons or likely to through temper tantrums, which you don't indicate.

As the others say, planning is about making sure that the stuff you need to take with you is already in your control... don't wait for when security dump you and a cardboard box out in the rain.

Incidentally, I'm not sure what you mean by "WRT the vacation thing, that would be very slimy, indeed."

If you've earned vacation i.e. so many days entitlement for so many days worked, then that is yours. If you leave wit two weeks holiday due, then that is your time and they need to pay you for it. This could mean you working two weeks notice and collecting 4 weeks pay. If you mean, give two weeks notice and then take it as holiday, I agree with you.

Lastly, and it comes up very often in these threads, remember that all contracts are negotiable.
What the employer offers is his standard terms and conditions. Unless you think about the terms, they won't.

If you don't like it, negotiate. The times to negotiate are:
  • when first employed
  • when your job changes
  • when seniority changes
Trying to re-negotiate notie periods at anyother time will cause management suspicions and may result in them assuming you are about to leave and taking pre-emptive action.

JMW
www.viscoanalyser.com
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I use a casio fx-300w and a real old Casio-fx-451.. I love the old 451.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I gave two weeks notice for state DOT and they kept piling the work on me.  My last day they went into a panic and tried to exit interview me and do HR stuff.  At 5 PM I walked out.  I agree with the above post that said you should not let their problem be your problem.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

What does your current employer's employee policy handbook state?

Today I just resigned from a firm that I was employed by for more than 16 years.  Times have been tough for various reasons and a few weeks ago the president told me that he was unable to make payroll for the next payday.  I stated that I could not continue without a steady paycheck as I have family responsibilties and no savings.  This conversation took place August 11th.  A contact that I have notified me of a group that was hiring immediately, one in which I worked with before taking the position that I just resigned from.  I have not received pay from my now former employer since August 6th.  I had no intention of leaving abruptly but I must provide for my family.  When I submitted my resignation today he expected me to stay for an additional two weeks to start up a project that was about to be awarded to the firm.  My response was that I had not received a pay check for work that I have already completed and that I had not received a paycheck in the last four weeks.  He did agree with me.  I have offered to help out as best I can on my free time at nights and to help them get the project going and my former employer has said that he will pay me (when he is able).

The point of all of this is that upon receipt of a letter of resignation some employers will want the employee to leave immediately - so one thing to do before submitting your resignation is to gather your important things before handing in the resignation.  Others will allow you to stay for the amount of time that is customary which in my former firm was two weeks as outlined in their employee policy handbook.  It is also the standard time for which most professional firms give notice of termination.

The firm that is hiring you sounds professional and will accept a delay of two weeks before you are able to start.  That is as it should be - (I would be hesitant to go to an new firm that insisted that I drop my current employer without proper and adequate  notification).  Your new employer will still be in business two weeks from now and they will respect your professionalism for giving your previous employer adequate notification.  And if your current employer tells you to leave sooner, than your new employer will be just as happy to have you start with the understanding that you did give your current employer the opportunity to allow you to finish off with the customary two weeks.  Again check your current employers employee policy handbook for what their undersatnding is of adequate notification.

Also, the way in that I handled my resignation did not burn bridges;  they have said that they do not want me to go and that if things improve they would hope that I might reconsider and return.  Who knows what time will bring.  I resigned in a way I think was professional and fortunately I am still on very good terms with my previous employer.  They could have just as easily said that I shoul take a long hike on a short pier; they are resonable and understand my responsibilities as I understand their difficult situation.  Life goes on......

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Companies will always say they want you to start yesterday.  After all, the sooner you start, the sooner you can get work done that they need done.  But in reality, the company can always wait until you're available, if you're the best person for the role.

The local labour laws in BC (canada) states something like one week per year of continuous service as a *minimum* for severance.  Also, they state that benefits are to be paid during this time (not many people realize that).  This is only a minimum, though, and it appears that recently wrongful dismissal suits have been doubling or tripling that minimum with ease.

I'm not sure what your contract says exactly, but it sounds like you could be terminated at any time for any reason.  If it doesn't say anything to the contrary, you are entitled to the same consideration (ie. you may leave for any reason at any time).  That being said, I would still offer two weeks as a minimum, or one week per year of service, as notice.  Offering to spread out the second week's worth to help integrate a new person is a great idea, if your new employer is amenable to it.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Don't make my mistake.

I gave 8 weeks notification (I wanted to be ethical and train someone). They kicked me out in two weeks that screwed up my plans. At the end everything worked out in my favour but the stress was there.

Keep this in mind and good luck.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Being contracted under an "at will" agreement as you described, you have no contractual obligation (they obviously wrote the contract to their benefit in the case someone doesn't work out), but I agree that a professional approach would be to give two weeks notice.  If they kick you out when you resign, write a nice letter of understanding to them and go along your merry way!

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

(OP)
Well, I've been at the new job for a month.

I did in fact give one weeks notice and then spent another full day there during the second week at my new job. I've also put in another 20 hrs or so on a contract basis in the evening and weekends.

I think it worked out OK for all concerned though maybe wasn't the best for the original firm. They still have a standing offer from me to do more PT work for them or to spend some time with my replacement.

I appreciate the guidance offered by everybody, though.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Perhaps notice should depend on how yor employer treats people. I have known a couple of engineers who worked at Disney when they were building the place (or at least doing major additions).  
Standard procedure there was to call everybody into a large room, tell them there through and escort them off site.  Their personal stuff was packed up and sent to them. It happened to both these engineers twice,  It was not near the end of a project or some milestone so they could suspect it was coming.
Quitting an outfit like that might call for less than the standard two weeks.  I would not give them any notice, just show up and your other job and they would take a month to find out you were gone.
.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy BJC.

Just because a company may have such an attitude towards their workers, doesn't mean it should be reciprocated.  What about your colleagues that you would be leaving in the lurch?  I have worked for companies where I didn't give two hoots for the corporation, but had personal loyalties to the people I left behind to such an extent where I made sure I cleared all jobs I was half way through to a point where a neat break off could be made.

Decisions about notice should also surely take personal relationships you have within the company into account.

Regards

James

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

(OP)
I side with James on this one. The company likely has no loyalty (some do, though) and therefore deserve none. The folks left behind, though... they do deserve it.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Additionally, while people still need to work and are often stuck with working for unprofessional companies, the converse is that you usually cannot afford to leave a company unprofessionally.  

As a general rule, companies are loath to give out negative information about ex-employees, but a simply statement of the fact that you left the company with no notice will certainly dim your future prospects.

TTFN

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

Irstuff.
As a matter of law you can not give out negative information about an ex employee.  
The only information you may give is the dates they worked and if the ex employee has given authorization their rate of pay.  
You can generally give favorable information over the phone or in a letter.  
You do both at your peril.  Remember there's a lawyer under every rock.  People have been sued for giving a good recommendations for someone who turns out to be a real dud.   
The worst thing you can say about someone is " I can connect you to HR for the exact dates he (she) worked here", that and no more.   If someone says that about you it's legal and it will be picked up as a  pretty bad recommendation.
If you quite on short notice, your ex-employer cannot tell anyone.  They can only say when you worked there.  If someone, say at Disney were to write a letter saying you were a jerk and walked out etc. etc. The lawyers would be lined up to take you case.
It may not be fair or just but that's the way it is.  

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

BJP mentioned authorizaton to check the rate of pay.  State employment records or national databases may reveal the pay rate.  When applying for a new position do not exaggerate your rate.  Consider letting the prospective employer know what you expect to justify changing companies.  Some companies limit the percentage rate increase.  You do not have to put a rate on the application.  Fill it correctly or omit the rate.

John

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

I would not give them any notice, just show up and your other job and they would take a month to find out you were gone.

Sounds a little unprefessional and immature to me... but hey, it's your career.

As a matter of law you can not give out negative information about an ex employee.  
The only information you may give is the dates they worked and if the ex employee has given authorization their rate of pay.


That's not a "law". You can say anything you want about an employee as long as its true and can be proven true. It's only against the law if it has a discriminatory intent, being against Title VII .

But you are right in that it's is better to keep your mouth shut. Just give name, dates and title.

RE: Giving Notice of Leaving

No law about giving out any info (other than private - social security number, address, etc) related to your past job. It is not a criminal case that these guys are getting pounded with its civil cases, slander and libel. Some of them deserve it. I learned a little bit about this a while back when, in my exit interview, I fired off on my boss and handed it out for all to see (managers-I was one). Of course, when I needed a reference he hammered me bad even though my evaluations (and promotions) said otherwise. It cost me one job. After that, I hired a third party to perform a reference check (after calling my old boss and verifying he would not slam me again). He said he would not but he did. I have contacted lawyers and it is an open and shut case for the most part due to me hiring a company to perform the check after a real potential employer contacted him.  
Ever since then, my references from them have been great (only title and dates of employement given). I should of just been nice when I left to avoid the problems. If I had to do it over again, I would get a letter of recommendation written first and then hammer the boss.  

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